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They want to protect themselves from harm they want to protect pack members from harm they want to protect territory from invasion

Gee, don't all of those directly affect getting food, water, and sex? If making things so complicated works for you, don't let me stop you. I like to break things down into the simplest form and then go from there.
They seek social interaction

Yes, this one I left out as I addressed in the other post just now.

Dogs want: food, water, sex, and to be a member of a pack. The fourth one is where I was too specific with "They want to please us."
They want to protect themselves from harm they want to protect pack members from harm they want to protect territory from invasion

Gee, don't all of those directly affect getting food, water, and sex?

Nope. What does protecting pack members from harm have to do with any of those? And why do some dogs have a very highly developed drive to protect places but not individuals while others have very highly developed drive to protect individuals but not places?
And what does self protection have to do with food/water/sex?
If making things so complicated works for you, don't let me stop you. I like to break things down into the simplest form and then go from there.

Things can be simplified into meaninglessness.
And what does self protection have to do with food/water/sex?

How on earth are you going to eat, drink, or screw if you're dead!? My god, I didn't know I needed to spell it out so clearly.

All of the other pertain to the same thing. A pack is basically just a mutual aid society. One dog defending another member of its pack is all just in order to make the food/water/sex source more secure.
And what does self protection have to do with food/water/sex?

How on earth are you going to eat, drink, or screw if you're dead!? My god, I didn't know I needed to spell it out so clearly.

I don't think dogs have that clear of view of cause and effect.
All of the other pertain to the same thing. A pack is basically just a mutual aid society. One dog defending another member of its pack is all just in order to make the food/water/sex source more secure.

It's true that the pack does provide this (though maybe not the sex, for all the dogs), but it is a mistake to assume that the dog knows this.
One can be motiviated to do the right thing for the wrong reason. As long as the right thing is done, evolution doesn't care why it was done (consider the Stately Peacock, for example).
So I do not agree that self protection has much to do with food/water/sex unless you want to stretch the defintions so far that they are meaning less. Self protection is about feeling safe. Dogs feels safe with the pack. You have not demonstrated that dogs connect self protection with food/water/sex.
Dogs do not reason that "Gosh, if I'm killed, I won't be able to eat/drink/screw."
Dogs reason (or respond) "This is scary! This is dangerous! This is a threat to my pack!"
Dogs do reason (in my opinion) but not the way you seem to think they do.
Terri & Harlan
How on earth are you going to eat, drink, or ... didn't know I needed to spell it out so clearly.

I don't think dogs have that clear of view of cause and effect.

They don't have to, self preservation is instinct in ALL animals. Food, water, and sex are all part of self preservation, the latter being the generativity side of the "self."
It's true that the pack does provide this (though maybe not the sex, for all the dogs), but it is a mistake to assume that the dog knows this.

Re above. They don't need to "know," it's built into their genetics.
They want to protect themselves from harm they want to protect pack members from harm they want to protect territory from invasion

Gee, don't all of those directly affect getting food, water, and sex? If making things so complicated works for you, don't let me stop you. I like to break things down into the simplest form and then go from there.

Fine. They do because they can. Not a lot of detail, but certainly comprehensive.

Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001), Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches
god,

I don't think dogs have that clear of view of cause and effect.

They don't have to, self preservation is instinct in ALL animals. Food, water, and sex are all part of self preservation, the latter being the generativity side of the "self."

I would agree that self preservation is an instinct in all animals, and never said otherwise.
Also, self-preservation has more to do with it then food, water and sex. All the food/water/sex in the world doesn't help self-preservation if you don't have sense to come out of the rain, for example. Being motivated to preserve self doesn't have anything to do with food/water/sex.
You don't think "Gosh, I hope I can avoid this accident so I can have food, water and sex later". You think, "Gosh, I hope I can avoid this accident." You are motivated to avoid getting squished because you don't want to get squished. Period.
The result that you get to enjoy food, water and sex afterward if you avoid getting squished doesn't mean they were motivations in avoiding getting squished.
It's true that the pack does provide this (though maybe ... mistake to assume that the dog knows this.

Re above. They don't need to "know," it's built into their genetics.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
You seem to be saying the end result correlates directly with the motivation.
I don't believe this is correct. If a dog likes/dislikes something, they like/dislike something, and it doesn't matter what the evolutionary benefit is (in terms of training/motivation).

I think you are looking at the issue in reverse, and trying to simplify things too far.
Terri & Harlan
Gee, don't all of those directly affect getting food, water, ... down into the simplest form and then go from there.

Fine. They do because they can. Not a lot of detail, but certainly comprehensive.

Now you're just being silly. A dog COULD jump off the roof. Obviously it doesn't because it does not fit into any of the categories either you or I have established.
Being motivated to preserve self doesn't have anything to do with food/water/sex.

A dog that does not eat is not going to live very long. A dog that does not breed is not going to pass on its genes. I stand by the interrelatedness of things.
You don't think "Gosh, I hope I can avoid this accident so I can have food, water and sex later". You think, "Gosh, I hope I can avoid this accident." You are motivated to avoid getting squished because you don't want to get squished. Period.

Sure, but what does that have to do with training or motivators? Instinct and motivation are two separate things. I am not discussing instinct here, but rather operant conditioning.
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