On the Dane board that I visit, there is someone who claims that he's a PP'er. He didn't put it that way, but he only uses positive reinforcement in training, doesn't think that anything else is necessary, and is a HUGE advocate of clicker training. I don't have a problem with that necessarily, but his premise is that any training that involves anything other than R+ is abusive.
When asked how he'd train a large adult dog to walk on a leash if he can't manage it without a tool, he said that he approves of the use of GL/Halti, and any dog can be trained to use it within 30 minutes. From personal experience, I know this to be so much doo-doo.

On SnakeProofing a dog, he said that he'd just ask the dog to recall to him, and when told that is not the intent behind snakeproofing a dog, sidestepped the question, by saying that my question was not specific enough.
On asking how he'd go about teaching a herding dog to channel its instincts appropriately, he said that he would teach each command separately, and chain them. I can tell why that wouldn't work, but having never even seen herding (unless 'Babe' counts), I'm sure I'm not the appropriate person to respond to it.
So, my question is, is there a way to convince someone who thinks that R+ is the be all and end all in dog training that there is such a thing as the appropriate use of the other quadrants?
Suja
1 2
So, my question is, is there a way to convince someone who thinks that R+ is the be all and end all in dog training that there is such a thing as the appropriate use of the other quadrants?

I suggest not answering, and if you feel you must, put (eggplant) in the subject line. Mark my words, this guy is going to turn into the sort who argues and wiggles and says that you didn't understand him and twists words and plays games with logic and definitions until you and everyone who comes near him becomes exasperated in non-defeat.
Lia
So, my question is, is there a way to convince someone who thinks that R+ is the be all and end all in dog training that there is such a thing as the appropriate use of the other quadrants?

Why is it so important that you "convince" him? He has his methods and you have yours.
In reference to the GL...for a lot of dogs it is an aversive...but they can be "conditioned" to tolerate it. You may want to mention that to him. For someone to be truly using R+ exclusively I think they would have to free shape everything. Even that is questionable since some dogs can get frustrated when first introduced to the clicker if the trainers signals are less than clear or the dog hasn't figured out the game yet..

BD
Quoth Suja (Email Removed) on Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:31:49 -0500,
On the Dane board that I visit, there is someone who claims that he's a PP'er. He didn't put it ... training, doesn't think that anything else is necessary, and is a HUGE advocate of clicker training. I don't have a

Hey, I am a huge advocate of clicker training. R+ is indeed heavily emphasised and a serious clicker group is a great place to get ideas on how to use R+ to acheive results for which R- and P+ are commonly used. But clicker training isn't all R+.
Sending him to the clicker training email list (clicktrain; you'll have to google on it) might or might not open his eyes to this.
problem with that necessarily, but his premise is that any training that involves anything other than R+ is abusive.

And that's just a closed mind. If he's always been this way, I wouldn't expect him to change. However it is a stage many trainers go through, when we first realize that we don't HAVE to use physical aversives in many, many cases. Maybe he'll outgrow it, maybe he won't. I don't have a lot of patience anymore with people who label all methods other than their own to be "abusive". If you similarly lack patience, well, why answer him at all?
When asked how he'd train a large adult dog to walk on a leash if he can't manage it without ... can be trained to use it within 30 minutes. From personal experience, I know this to be so much doo-doo.

I haven't used the GL (yet who knows, it may be a tool I need in the future) but my main issue would be with the time frame. I dunno, maybe you can get the dog to tolerate it in 30 minutes. Of course, it is aversive to most dogs before they are trained to it; so I'm not sure how you can train a dog to tolerate a GL while protecting him from any physical unpleasantness. I expect your Dane guy will redefine on the fly to get around this one.
On SnakeProofing a dog, he said that he'd just ask the dog to recall to him, and when told that is not the intent behind snakeproofing a dog, sidestepped the question, by saying that my question was not specific enough.

Snakeproofing isn't all that common. Theoretically I think you could do it with R+, by training a recall with "perceiving a snake" as the cue. Fortunately it's not a big issue where I live now, but yes, I might take that approach if I needed to snakeproof a dog (depending on the dog, depending on whether the dog has any unconditioned response to snakes and what that response is, depending on how likely it is that the dog will run into snakes.. depending on a lot of things).
On asking how he'd go about teaching a herding dog to channel its instincts appropriately, he said that he would ... but having never even seen herding (unless 'Babe' counts), I'm sure I'm not the appropriate person to respond to it.

There are people on the clicktrain list who would have appropriate responses. Minimizing physical aversives in herding training seems to mostly involve controlling access to the sheep. I don't think you would want to teach commands and chain them without the sheep present, since so much of what the herding dog does is about the dog's instincts and experience WITH the sheep (or other herdable beasties). It seems to me (as inexperienced with herding as you) that it would be a lot like trying to teach you how to crochet without letting you near a hook or yarn until "the behaviors have been chained".
For dogs who are keenly tuned in to the sheep, "taking away" and "giving back" control of the sheep seem to be very useful, according to those who've done it. But oopsie! controlling access to the sheep isn't pure R+. Not allowing the dog to work the sheep could certainly count as an aversive. At minimum it would be P-...
So, my question is, is there a way to convince someone who thinks that R+ is the be all and end all in dog training that there is such a thing as the appropriate use of the other quadrants?

Time, his own experience, and most of all don't worry too much about it. Someone calls you a Dog Abusing Thug here in the newsgroups, you killfile him when he gets too annoying. Dane List Guy gets too annoying on an email group, apply a filter if you can and if you can't, just skip his posts. Emotion: tongue tiedhrug: Specifics like how one might train certain things (leash manners, snakeproofing, and herding) can be interesting, bullying others for not using those methods is not interesting so why bother with it?

Only know that there is no spork.
When asked how he'd train a large adult dog to walk on a leash if he can't manage it without ... *For fun but so much truth in it it's all over your screen, rent the movie "Serial" with Martin Mull.

I have SEEN people like that.
Shining Path Klub folks are also the most disingenuous people I've ever come across.
On asking how he'd go about teaching a herding dog to channel its instincts appropriately, he said that he would ... prohibits the use of frowns. You are to smile only! It could be damaging to the dog's emotional well being.

How can any logic or common sense be applied to someone like that? They have a Telos/Raelian belief in these things and like all cults, have their blinders firmly attached to their faces.
So, my question is, is there a way to convince someone who thinks that R+ is the be all and ... ever been convinced? They just do not have the brain capabilities of embracing anything other than their own beliefs.

Personally I've long since given up on them.When "they" begin to speak,my eyes glaze over.
Let's put it this way: If you manage to convince this guy of anything other than His Way,I will send some Greenies to the handsome K-Man.
Terri
* SPK people should not be confused with other PP'ers that are capable of actually understanding other methods,even if they don't personally apply them. There is a huge difference between the two factions.

Larry La Prise, the man who wrote "The Hokey Pokey," died peacefully at age
93. The most traumatic part for his family was getting him into the coffin.

They put his left leg in. And then the trouble started.
The last time I looked at Rammel's page I started laughing because she prohibits the use of frowns. You are to smile only! It could be damaging to the dog's emotional well being.

Y'know, the more I learn about clicker training, the more I think I'm starting to understand what's going on with people like Marilyn. It's kind of like what causes some Christians to become the wild-eyed fanatics who are ready to send you to hell for dancing. They take stuff out of context, and focus on it out of perspective.
Yes, if you have a sensitive dog, your frowns can be an aversive! You may not even be aware that you're telegraphing your displeasure to a dog, and under certain circumstances with some dogs, you can actually inhibit their learning with any kind of correction.
In general, it's a very good idea to be aware and purposeful with all the messages you're sending your dog, as subtle as they may be in your body language and tone, and to be aware of how your dog is reacting to your messages.
But to take that and make it into the gospel, "Never frown at your dog!" is distorted.
Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html Build Your Immune System, Lose Weight
http://www.re-vita.net/dfrntdrums
Has anyone ever,in the history of this newsgroup that is a member of the Shining Path Klub ever been convinced? They just do not have the brain capabilities of embracing anything other than their own beliefs.

Elizabeth mentioned the list "clicktrain", where the list goddess (Shirley Chong) is fair minded enough to espouse the use of the other 3 quadrants of OC, even to the point of using an ecollar for recall and snake proffing. She is still considered a clicker guru, and through the years she has worn down many "Shining Path Klub" members with her candid acceptance of whatever works the best in the given situation, including P-, R- and P+.

The Clicker Journal now has *me* writing about retriever training. And lord knows I'm not SPK member ;-> But the editor (Victoria Farrington) realizes that there are situations (like in the field with sheep or birds) where controlling access isn't possible, and short of that, high-drive dogs would spend their lives on leash.
The last issue of The Clicker Journal was devoted to "The Art of Retrieving". And Victoria, brave soul that she is, printed an article I wrote that described the steps retriever trainers use to teach a dog the controled retrieve, aka, the force fetch. She even printed instructions about pinching the dog's ear during the process.
Now, granted, there is a wide range of techniques to force fetch a dog, and obviously I described the least aversive for this clicker audience. But the fact remains that the clicker aficianodos got the issue, and I haven't received a single piece of hate mail ;->
Gary Wilkes had an article in TCJ a while ago wherin he espoused the use of P+ in teaching shelter dogs because it is the most expedient way in many cases, and the dogs lives are at stake so there is no time to dance around its use.

So, Suja, you might want to point these "cutting edge" tendencies of the mainstream of clicker training. And if dane-guy wants to stay mired in the backwater eddies of his own preconceived notions, there's nothing you can do.

(Well, you could suggest he subscribe to The Clicker Journal and I'll promise to have smoke coming out of his ears about 6 times a year ;->)
Susan Fraser, owned and trained by
BeBop a Lu SheBop SH
Shamma Lamma Ding Dong CD MH
and Gris Gris Gumbo YaYa
http://mypeoplepc.com/members/chinchuba/goldensinthenews /
Personally I've long since given up on them.When "they" begin to speak,my eyes glaze over.

I think that I should adopt this approach. If he were a complete loon, it would be easy. The problem is that he is one of the voices of reason on a board that's heavy on 'You have to show the dog who's the boss'. I generally agree with his advice, as it tends to be anti alpha rolls and other misguided notions of that ilk.
Let's put it this way: If you manage to convince this guy of anything other than His Way,I will send some Greenies to the handsome K-Man.

There's probably a better chance of hell freezing over. Then again, I should've know, 'cause this is the same guy who's all 'Raw! Raw! Raw!', and advices people to just start feeding RMBs with no research whatsoever. Unfortunately, lots of people do just that.

Suja
Personally I've long since given up on them.When "they" begin to speak,my eyes glaze over.

I think that I should adopt this approach. If he were a complete loon, it would be easy. The problem ... generally agree with his advice, as it tends to be anti alpha rolls and other misguided notions of that ilk.

Well,then he's got some value I suppose.
But this guy will give you a chance to practice your bemused look. Looking bemused comes in very handy at times.
Of course,some people not in the know sometimes think that look with confusion,but what do they know?
There's probably a better chance of hell freezing over. Then again, I should've know, 'cause this is the same guy who's all 'Raw! Raw! Raw!', and advices people to just start feeding RMBs with no research whatsoever. Unfortunately, lots of people do just that.

Yabbut,sooner or later you begin to realize that people are always going to do such things with or without voices of reason and common sense. They're called "morons".
What's that expression again? Oh yeah:
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him do differential calculus".
That's where your newly practiced bemused look comes in real handy.

Terri

Larry La Prise, the man who wrote "The Hokey Pokey," died peacefully at age
93. The most traumatic part for his family was getting him into the coffin.

They put his left leg in. And then the trouble started.
Show more