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Thanks. She is a Brittany Spaniel. I yelp like a ... those be okay to do if she keeps at it?

Brittany Spaniels are properly bred to be Bird field/gun dogs,with desire to hunt in the field ALL DAY long. Go-go-go-go ... field work? This notion of what a dog is BRED for often escapes a person selecting a dog by looks.

Diddy, please help me out here, okay?
What is it about Brits historically being bred for the field that has you thinking that that would preclude it from also excelling in Obedience?
Amy Dahl this past week, posted on working /retrieving/water/gun dogs. And as she explained their training and purpose, It all ... do. Also what you are looking for in an obedience candidate may possibly not be the best working gun dog.

Why not? I went back and re-read Amy's post and I couldn't find any relevance to your comments here or to this poster's immediate problem?

Would you please clear this up for me?

Handsome Jack Morrison
Five Minutes to Midnight:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTlkNGQwOGJlMGE5YjAzNDRjNmRhMzY0M2ZiMGFkNGI = A terror plot is exposed by the policies many American liberals oppose: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008785 Fauxtography:
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/10/fauxtography / http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22029 Directed By Green Helmet Guy&only Worry about the West - Not Israel.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/worry about the west not israe.html Well, this certainly isn't good
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4.htm
More reasons never to believe anything you see in the NYT: http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/08/new-york-times-busted-in-hezbollah.html Hizbollah's "Useful Idiots" Mum About Reuters Scam: http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/08/07/hizbullahs-useful-idiots-mum-about-reuters-scam / Hezbollah Video Dating Service:
http://www.adammutterperl.com/video/hezbollah.mov
Norwegian Author: "Israel Is History"
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/189524.php
Reuters admits altering Beirut photo!
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html The Brink of Madness. A familiar place.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZDBhMzg5Mzk4NjQ5MjM5OTJhZjRjMWQ4OWMzNDhmMzk = Obsession: Radical Islam’s War with the West (a must-see movie!): http://www.obsessionthemovie.com /
If you don't want your own DVD, you can view the movie here: It's over an hour long, so make some popcorn, crack open a beer, and take a good, hard look at what's coming. Or...you can keep your head stuck in the sand.
Thanks. She is a Brittany Spaniel. I yelp like a puppy when she does it and sometimes that works - ... closed as I say "no bite" - will either of those be okay to do if she keeps at it?

It can work or it can make your future with your dog a lot more problematic. Same with the penny can thing. Both may teach the dog not to bite or may teach the dog not to go near you and not to trust you. Part of it has to do with the individual dog and part has to do with how you apply the technique.I asked if you had puppy classes nearby because it seems to me you have no experience with puppies (not knowing whether your puppy's behavior was normal). When I had my first dog to take care of, the most valuable thing to me was in person help from people who understood dogs well. The most important thing in teaching dogs what not to do is timing and being able to read your dog. Those are things that can't really be taught in writing. If you have someone help you with it, you can save yourself a lot of trial and error, but you can also save yourself from having to fix things you accidentally trained in while you were trying to train them out of something.

You can't even imagine what a pain that can be until you have fostered a bunch of rescue dogs with issues, but it is even worse when you know you did it yourself from just not knowing what you were doing. Find a puppy class and it will make a huge difference in your enjoyment of your dog and ability to train whatever you want to train in the future.

Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
in thread Handsome Jack Morrison (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
Diddy, please help me out here, okay? What is it about Brits historically being bred for the field that has you thinking that that would preclude it from also excelling in Obedience?

Amy Dahl this past week, posted on working /retrieving/water/gun dogs. ... candidate may possibly not be the best working gun dog.

Why not? I went back and re-read Amy's post and I couldn't find any relevance to your comments here or to this poster's immediate problem? Would you please clear this up for me?

The way I read it, and I trust you will correct me if I'm wrong, that due to retrieving dogs tunnel visioning out extraneous distractions, they become totally focused on the task. When training them, their agenda may not be yours, resulting in multiple repetitions drilling in their mission, and making your mission theirs. Which explained to me, why when I trained them, they required redundancy/repetitions and drilling, as opposed to dog that you show them once, and they have it.
The show once wonders, tend to be easy to train, as long as you clearly send your message the FIRST time. Retrievers need for repetition is far more forgiving to a novice trainer, whose consistency, timing, and ability to clearly communicate with their dogs allows more forgiving techiniques, which is why they are considered good obedience dogs. Once you drillin that task, they keep doing it and doing it. And that becomes their tunnel visioned goal.
Not a bad thing, and apparently a good thing for retrievers. But the dog that excels in basic obedience training, may not be the best retrieving dog.If they are "Show once wonders", they may not have developed the tunnel vision and task orientation of the retrieving dog faced with many distractions that he perhaps needs to filter out.
The Show Once Wonders may be so impressionable, and versatile, that they can tend to lose job focus.
That's my immediate impression, and perhaps I need to explain it better when I'm less distracted.Or perhaps I took a wrong spin on what she was saying
iThe way I read it, and I trust you will correct me if I'm wrong, that due to retrieving dogs ... trained them, they required redundancy/repetitions and drilling, as opposed to dog that you show them once, and they have it.

Actually I have found that with most Labs, once you get their attention and get them motivated about the training, you can show them once and they do it. Both criteria, attention and motivation, need to be fulfulled, though. In early training, if the dog hasn't recognized the payoff "learning is fun," and is constantly distracted and more interested in other things, they may seem a bit slow.
For many Labs, all it takes is one really good correction. A number of times I have switched from a choke to a pinch collar, and put my whole body into a sudden change of direction. Hey presto, the Lab that was blowing me off is suddenly hanging on my every word, as if to say, "this is great, why didn't you tell me you had something to say?" Then I can take the pinch collar off (most dogs) and use only mild reminders with a choke or buckle collar.

It would be dishonest not to mention that "neutered" males don't respond the same. They may seem to catch on from the beginning of a session to the end, but next day they appear to have forgotten and need to repeat the progression. Over a lot of time, and with repetition, their behavior can be modified, but I have never been able to get that fully-engaged, show-me-once-and-I'll-do-it response from a castrated Lab.

Chesapeakes, IME, frequently need more repetition. With this breed it is a mistake to escalate the level of correction because the dog isn't complying (usually). Almost always, they are paying attention. My reading is that they need to "test" everything to find out if the trainer is really committed to a given outcome, and also to experiment with the parameters that affect how the trainer will respond to their behavior. Once they complete their testing, the behavior becomes remarkably fixed. Call for it years later, and it is likely to be there in its entirety (as with the *** who jumped out of the truck onto my shoulder). Try to modify it into something else, and you'll have a lot more work ahead than you would with a Lab.
The show once wonders, tend to be easy to train, as long as you clearly send your message the FIRST ... dogs. Once you drillin that task, they keep doing it and doing it. And that becomes their tunnel visioned goal.

Actually I think Labrador behavior is pretty plastic, and needs to be maintained or it will evolve.
Not a bad thing, and apparently a good thing for retrievers. But the dog that excels in basic obedience training, ... filter out. The Show Once Wonders may be so impressionable, and versatile, that they can tend to lose job focus.

My way of thinking about this is that even when a dog gets what you want very quickly, repetition is needed to establish the behavior as habit. Even with a dog whose behavior is relatively more plastic, habitual behavior is easier and more efficient (usually) than new behavior that requires thought.
The error a lot of people make in training their field retrievers is to think that because they have the dog doing something well in the controlled, training situation, that the dog "knows" it. In fact the behavior hasn't been committed to habit, and in a different setting with new distractions, the dog does something else.

Of course, a lot of people also make the error of working too long on something a dog does really well. This happens a lot with lining and casting drills. Then the dog gets too stuck in doing things a certain way, and has great difficulty moving beyond them.

Doing the appropriate amount of repetition at each level before moving on is an important issue in training effectively, IMO.
That's my immediate impression, and perhaps I need to explain it better when I'm less distracted.Or perhaps I took a wrong spin on what she was saying

I thought some clarification might help, hence this post. Mostly I'm sorry that the retrievers you worked with didn't show you their best side.
Amy Dahl
A swat on the nose or holding her snout closed ... those be okay to do if she keeps at it?

no. good way to teach her not to trust your hands. are you in puppy classes?

Swatting a dog on the nose is always the wrong thing to do.

IMO, the fastest way to curb a mouthy puppy's desire to bite hands (especially if other methods have failed, because you don't want this habit to become reinforced by too much success), etc., is to take advantage of the pup's gag reflex:
Slowly reach over and around the pup's shoulder (while you're sitting on the floor), coming up to the pup's mouth from underneath it with your right hand (that way he can't see your finger or your hand), and stick your index finger into the pup's mouth, at the very rear, then down the pup's throat, and gently place some downward pressure on the back of the tongue, until he starts to gag. Use your left arm to hold him close to you, while you're doing this. Trust me, it's easier to demonstrate this technique than to explain it, but it's fail-proof.

He'll quickly put 2 and 2 together. Biting hands = gag.

Handsome Jack Morrison
Five Minutes to Midnight:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTlkNGQwOGJlMGE5YjAzNDRjNmRhMzY0M2ZiMGFkNGI = A terror plot is exposed by the policies many American liberals oppose: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008785 Fauxtography:
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/10/fauxtography / http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22029 Directed By Green Helmet Guy&only Worry about the West - Not Israel.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/worry about the west not israe.html Well, this certainly isn't good
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4.htm
More reasons never to believe anything you see in the NYT: http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/08/new-york-times-busted-in-hezbollah.html Hizbollah's "Useful Idiots" Mum About Reuters Scam: http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2006/08/07/hizbullahs-useful-idiots-mum-about-reuters-scam / Hezbollah Video Dating Service:
http://www.adammutterperl.com/video/hezbollah.mov
Norwegian Author: "Israel Is History"
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/189524.php
Reuters admits altering Beirut photo!
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html The Brink of Madness. A familiar place.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZDBhMzg5Mzk4NjQ5MjM5OTJhZjRjMWQ4OWMzNDhmMzk = Obsession: Radical Islam’s War with the West (a must-see movie!): http://www.obsessionthemovie.com /
If you don't want your own DVD, you can view the movie here: It's over an hour long, so make some popcorn, crack open a beer, and take a good, hard look at what's coming. Or...you can keep your head stuck in the sand.
in thread Amy Dahl (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
I thought some clarification might help, hence this post. Mostly I'm sorry that the retrievers you worked with didn't show you their best side. Amy Dahl

Flat coats.. yes. Curlie coated, yes, Chesapeakes, yes. I just don't have an affinity for labradors. I always think of them as lunkheads. They seem to respond more to physical corrections than the rest. The rest have seemed to respond to finesse.
I have a physical disability, and prefer finesse to physical. This is my experience. And I'm going to go digest what you just said. Thanks for clarifying.
We have lots of labs and goldens in our dog club obedience classes. I know Labs and goldens make GREAT obedience dogs. But these in our obedience classes just aren't progressing the way they should. Their owners call them stupid, dunce heads. Since these are "senior instructors" of the club, it's not my job to tell them how to train their dogs. But these dogs should be progressing, and they are not. IF I understood how these dogs learned, perhaps I could help them. These are not gun dogs btw.
Love it. Thanks. I'll give it a go.

you're going to carry a penny can with you all of the time? Why not get to classes and get in person help with this very common problem?

I agree. This is a very common and simple problem, however to shake an annoying can of pennies at her every time will amount to bupkis (I'm not a fan of that method anyway. Its too often abused, and it certainly wasn't explained properly in this case).
You have a dog that could really benefit from training training and more TRAINING. They are whip smart, crafty and love to improvise. While it wouldn't be that complicated to tell you how to teach her not to do that, in order to accomplish it in the real world, you need to spend some good time teaching her what TO do.
Sorry for talking to the OP via your post, Janet. Yeah..I got totally lazy and didn't look up the original message :-)
Tara
Thanks. She is a Brittany Spaniel. I yelp like a puppy when she does it and sometimes that works - ... closed as I say "no bite" - will either of those be okay to do if she keeps at it?

There are schools that say a 9wk old puppy is too young to be held accountable for their actions, so I'm not sure I'd crank up harsh corrections on them. A swat o nthe nose may be in that realm at this point. Holding the snout closed is more appropriate with the "no" correction at this point if you ask me.
When nipping while playing with you, retract your hand from them if they start to bite. The notion is that "you nip me, we stop playin". And don't make games out of biting, or pulling that encourages the behavior rather than preventing it.
Be sure they have plenty of toys to chew on. Puppies chew and are generally quite oral all normal stuff. Just direct them to things that are appropriate to chew on and use mild corrections for now until they're old enough to be held responsible fo rtheir actions.

A puppy class and later an obedience class are two very very good suggestions from other posters.
Best Regards,

Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net /
in thread (Email Removed) (Todd H.) whittled the following words:
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