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First of all I appreciate the advice and will definately do what I can..but it is unfair for you to judge that I do not take the time with my puppy..

I'm sorry, but it's not. Puppies can't just be put in a box for 8 hours. They're a big commitment and one that not everyone can take on.
..we do not live in some big city that we can just hire someone to be there with her during ... and in fact don't know many people there especially ones who will stop over and let her out for us..

I bet if you called your vet's office, they may be able to point you in the direction of someone you can HIRE. Petsitters exist a lot of places, you'd be surprised. That's probably a good first attempt, but if you have a local shelter, they may know too.
and we DO definately give her LOTS and LOTS of attention and we praise her also we love our animals and certainly woudn't want to do anything that wasn't in their best interests..

Your words were "we let her out", not "we take her out and make sure she eliminates and praise her". The first doesn't get you very far with housebreaking, while the second one does. You want to be successful, so it's important to do whatever you can to make it so!
..as far as an x-pen area..I am not even sure what that is unless it is just a fancy term ... a weed and will not be a small dog for long that would be super I would look into that..

X-pen is shorthand for exercise pen. You can buy them from many online retailers. I personally would get the tallest and largest possible - it can always be made smaller if needed, and can comform to space. It's still not ideal, but it's better than a crate for 8 hours.
But we are NOT irresponsible...we just don't have the resourses available and weren't prepared (or at least I wasn't) for a puppy...

That says it all. Resources and preparedness are pretty huge when it comes to bringing a living being into your life! One of the regulars here had a surprise litter of puppies recently. Preparedness didn't exist. She got into gear pretty fast though, to give those puppies everything they need. Puppies need us to provide what they need. Not always simple or convenient, but necessary!
.my husband just brought her home from a business trip...and I am left to find solutions on what to do for her..

Is *HE* helping with any of those solutions? ARGHHH - surprises are such bad ideas so much of the time.
We live in a cold climate so she isn't left outside for long periods of time and she is often too cold to do her business probably..I will however do better about monitoring her out there and will work to praise her more...,..

That's essential. Take her out on leash (even if you have a fenced yard). She needs to learn to eliminate first, play later. It can be tough for a pup who has already learned to do the latter, but if you are consistent, she'll get the hang of it. I generally give 5 minutes, then come back in and keep her with you for 5-10 minutes and try again. She gets no freedom until she eliminates, when you know she should need to (a benefit of meal scheduling). I would usually say you can use the crate for this, but since she's already developed her habit of eliminating in there, I would use a leash or gated or closed doors.
.I think we have started this off by you getting the wrong picture in your head about me..I am not like those scums on animal planet that torture their animals..we really do love them..which is why I am seeking advice!!!

I don't think your scum and don't think you torture animals. But your puppy needs an awful lot more than she's getting, so feedings, outings, exercise, supervision, companionship - all of those things are things you can change and make better, if you put forth the effort. She's counting on you!

Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
she will not be in the house forever...she will be an outside dog..but is obviously too small at this time.

Be prepared for posts on the down sides of outdoor dogs. I'm not quite clear, but do you have other dogs she will be spending her time with?

Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Thanks..I will start right away..I will contact the vets office and see if there is anyone in our town that does that sort of thing...if not I will definately start tonight with the changes that need to be made. My point on e-mailing was for advise and I definately got that..I will take this and move forward..I don't want her to be unhappy..and my husband WILL help with these efforts..you can BET on that..we have a small toddler and three other animals..he will NEED to help with this.
Thanks..I will start right away..I will contact the vets office and see if there is anyone in our town that does that sort of thing...if not I will definately start tonight with the changes that need to be made.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress! Any pictures of this little girl?
and my husband WILL help with these efforts..you can BET on that..we have a small toddler and three other animals..he will NEED to help with this.

You bet! And all of your housebreaking efforts are good training for upcoming toilet training!

Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Yes we have another outdoor dog..one of the reasons for my husband getting the puppy apparently was so that our lab had a companion out there...she is five years old..and I can understand that reasoning of getting her a companion..she gets taken out daily of the kennel area and played with/ walked etc..we used to have her in the house but she got to the point where she just didn't want to be in..she has a ton of energy..we have an insulated dog house with large kennel for her outside..she has a lot of space out there. Our other two dogs are housedogs and housetrained and have the run of the main floor of our house durning the day...and also get out regularly as well..they were easy to train..but for some reason I have always struggled with the bigger dogs..
@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
Yes we have another outdoor dog..one of the reasons for myhusband getting the puppy apparently was so that our lab ... also get out regularly aswell..they were easy to train..but for some reason I have always struggled with the bigger dogs..

I'm struggling with how to approach this. You are clearly a person who cares about the well being of the animals in her life, and yet its equially clear that they aren't getting what they need.
All dogs require concentrated exercise and training. Small or large, they all need* it for their well being. Where the big differences come in is that in small dogs, the problems that arise from not doing what they need tend to be forgiven by the humans involved (because they are small, the resulting behaviors are less intrusive), while in the bigger dogs, the results of not giving them sufficient *concentrated exercise and training cause them to be banished from the house.

Honestly, your Lab didn't need another dog to be thrown out there with her, she needed a human in the house to take responsibility for her mental and physical requirements. I really (really!) don't mean to bash, and like I said, you sound like a person who cares about her dogs. But the way you feel about your dogs needs to be weighed against the care they are actually receiving*..as it seems like there's unfortunately a big disconnect between the two.Its interesting. I just had a debate with a friend I hadn't seen in years who had called me asking for training advice with his new puppy. By the time we finally got to speak, he had gotten rid of the puppy. He works long hours, but really wanted a dog. His wife isn't really equipped to handle a dog (barely wants one, is semi afraid of them, but willing to do *some things to overcome her challenges). She only wanted a smaller dog that she felt she could handle.

He wanted a Pit puppy he saw at an adoption event. Since he was the one that wanted* a dog, he decided that he "won" and got the Pit baby. However, The *wife was the one who was doing most of the hands-on care of the pup. The wife was doing most of the exercising, handling, and (therefore) training of the pup. And she was right: she was simply not up to the task of a dog with those kinds of mental and physical needs. Within a month, the pup was returned to the rescue..but not before developing some realy crappy behaviors.
My friend has decided that this puppy was just not the right fit and was just too intense. He insists that if he finds another pup, things will go well. I was almost happy about him seeing reason until he said "I'm waiting for my favorite kind of dog. I've always wanted a Cattle Dog, so I'm going to either buy one of those or adopt one"

Gah!
That's when the "debate" started. A dog that requires a ton of exercise and mental stimulation (i.e. Training) NEEDS those things. They are not optional. Those needs can't be turned on and off because the human needs to go do something else for a few days. I told him it was unfair to expect his wife to address the needs of a dog like that when she was very upfront about not wanting to, and about not being able to. His response was "I know, I'll handle all of that. She won't have to do a thing". Yeah right. So for the 9 hours he's at work everyday, they'll just access the puppy's Off switch?
It just doesn't work that way. The only Off switch that a puppy (or a dog, for that matter) has is the one accessed by taking them out, going for a good long run (or play session), followed by a hike, followed by a good training session. That'll buy you several hours of mellow and no/low maintenance in a young pup. To expect the off switch to just happen because you need it to is unfair..and its why so many dogs end up exiled to the garage/basement/backyard, or dropped of in shelters, IMO.Ok, while this rant was in response to your post, it wasn't directed solely at you personally. You happened to trigger what is a point of frustration for me, and that in turn triggered this rant. With that said, I think there are some choices you might need to make here. One of them might be returning the puppy (or finding it a more appropriate home) and putting that energy into the dog you already have living by herself in the backyard.

The energy it takes to properly train a puppy could be spent exercising and training your 5 year old Lab to be a mamber of your household. Or, you could exile two dogs outside and leave it at that, I suppose..but I really don't like that choice. I think its unfair not only to this new puppy, but to the dog you already gave up on.
There are lots of ways to work through this. I really hope you stick around and access the information that could help you do it. You may have to grow some thick skin, as there are plenty of people who will have problems with some of the choices you've made, but if you're willing to listen, let the more blatant nastiness go (while trying to glean the gems that still may be in those posts), and put some energy into changing some things, you could maybe end up welcoming your not-so- old Lab back into the family, rather than trying to raise a puppy to be forced company for an exiled old friend.
Tara
42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:
We keep her in there during the day which is a long stretch of 8 hours because we can';t run ... periodically and goes outside and as soon as she is put in her kennel minutes later sometimes she has messed.[/nq]There's your problem. As you have been letting her be in her crate all day and she has to mess in there, it has desensitized her to soiling in her den and convinced her that it is fine to mess in there. It may even seem like the right place to go. If you are going to be gone that long during the day and have a little puppy, you need to have someone come in during that time and let the puppy out.

They can't hold it that long. If one of you can't come home on a lunch break, look for a dog walker, a neighbor or a doggie day care. It is going to be a disaster to raise a dog in a kennel all day and all night with just a little time out for more reasons than just the pottying in the crate problem.

Paula
My friend has decided that this puppy was just not the right fit and was just too intense. He insists ... of dog. I've always wanted a Cattle Dog, so I'm going to either buy one of those or adopt one"

He's going to need a new wife. Or a different, less time-intensive job. Or maybe he'll learn to enjoy living in a crater full of former-furniture and bits of drywall, with a dog that both makes and enforces its own house rules. 'Cause those are his options, even with an adult ACD.

Speaking of ACDs, I'm worried about Ranger. Nothing I can point to, specifically, but the boy just ain't quite right the last few days. Very clingy, lots of sighs. But his temp's normal, his breathing is normal, his color is normal, he's eating with his usual gusto, and as active as ever. I know if there's something seriously wrong and I miss the opportunity to catch it early, I'll be kicking myself. Then again, what's the likelihood of my vet being able to diagnose a vague "Ain't Doin' Right" when I've got nothing more than an impression to go on?
I will definately keep you posted on any progress..I have my lists started of what I need to do..I have some solutions in mind and will let you know how it goes..I am heading to the store at noon to look for some things for Shadow (that is her name)..yes I have some photos..lets see how the heck to I attach those?? I guess I need computer training too!!!hehehehe!!!
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