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But you, Matt, are pretty much always friendly and polite.

and you think i'm the opposite of that.
does that mean you aren't going to address my original concerns? perhaps if Matt or someone nicer than me would rephrase my questions in a more acceptable manner, you'd see fit to respond?
- I don't mind being picked up for some errors in my posting, I appreciate I could have worded it ... this herbal treatment has been in keeping a dog that really would be bouncing off the walls, calm and happy.

i'm glad it worked for your dog. but, you took it one step beyond relaying what worked in your situation by A) claiming valerian has no side-effects and no toxicity level and B) recommending its use in treating SA.
i'm baffled at why you think you can give out medical advice without being held accountable for it.
The post was intended as I titled it, 'might be useful for some'.

you left out the "could be harmful to others" part.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
We discovered valerian root capsules - natures sleeping pill - for humans

Please, please, please folks: Do not buy into the fallacy that if something is "natural" it's automatically safe.
That's just not the case.
Remind yourself of all the things out there that are "natural", but not safe. Botulism comes to mind. And what could be more natural than mushrooms?
Remind yourself that "natural" stuff is still made of chemicals. Hey, where do you think chemicals come from?
Remind yourself that "natural" remedies are usually not uniform or regulated.
Please, please, please be careful. Use logic, not emotional reaction to the word "natural" when considering treatment for you or yours. Research any chemical throuroughly. Read pro and con sites. Make sure to include "side effects" or "warnings" in your searches.

Otherwise, you could wind up doing some serious damage to someone you care about.
maybe valerian is perfectly safe to give to dogs, but hopefully Diane will appreciate that it would be irresponsible for anyone to take her word for it.

I think it is very irresponsible *if* anyone would take the word of someone's advice on an NG without consulting their Vet first.
And I personally don't think Diana was giving advice with the intent that the person was going to give their dog valerian without asking their Vet first.

Gwen
do you know that valerian does not exacerbate or cause anxiety in dogs? unless you know that, then suggesting its use for

You either want to discuss, or be try to 'show up and pick fault'. I only offered some thoughts and ... you want to play nicely, sure, I'd love to discuss. Otherwise, enjoy yourself in whatever petite way you need to.

I see nothing improper in shelly's response.
You may have felt it a personal attack. However, consider for a moment that perhaps shelly was responding to your post (your post, not you) with alarm.
There are absolutely health risks involved in taking any "natural" rememdy, and shelly is correct to point that out, in however strong a language she wishes to use. Did you know that valerian can cause life-threatening allergic reaction in some people? Or that it can cause heart regularities?
Or, it may conflict with other medicines.
See:
http://www.drugs.com/MTM/valerian.html
In particular, consider this paragraph, which applies to all sorts of "natural" remedies:
"Valerian has not been evaluated by the FDA for safety, effectiveness, or purity. All potential risks and/or advantages of valerian may not be known. Additionally, there are no regulated manufacturing standards in place for these compounds. There have been instances where herbal/health supplements have been sold which were contaminated with toxic metals or other drugs. Herbal/health supplements should be purchased from a reliable source to minimize the risk of contamination."
Remember, there really is no such thing as "alternative medicine". If something works, it's medicine. If it doesn't work, it's quackery.
Oh, and here's fun fact: Write "medicine" enough times, and it starts to look mis-spelled.
We discovered valerian root capsules - natures sleeping pill - for humans

Please, please, please folks: Do not buy into the fallacy that if something is "natural" it's automatically safe.

I agree with the above. In fact because it is an herb it is not regulated. Thus different potencies, different mixtures, different quality. It took me a long time to realize this. I have taken valerian but I do know that it isn't safer just because it is a natural herb.
Gwen
do you know that valerian does not exacerbate or cause anxiety in dogs? unless you know that, then suggesting its use for

You either want to discuss, or be try to 'show up and pick fault'. I only offered some thoughts and ... you want to play nicely, sure, I'd love to discuss. Otherwise, enjoy yourself in whatever petite way you need to.

Diana, shelly's response to your posting comes from, as I see it, two main areas.
First is your statement that you "searched and searched" for side effects and found nothing.(1) Searching for "Valerian side effects dogs" on Google gives the results that you probably found. A brief scan of them shows that it says "no side effects" quite a bit. However, broadening your search to simply "Valerian Side effects" gives a number of sites where side effects, some of them potentially serious, are mentioned.

Google search on "Valerian Side Effects"
http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&newwindow=1 &q=Valerian+side+effects&btnG=Search
or
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2F552659
The second is recommending its use in the case of seperation anxiety. SA is a serious problem with some dogs, and often requires a great deal of training, management, drugs or a combination of the three. Just recommending it This stems from some of the sites that you didn't see in my previous paragraph. One of the side effects that people have expereinced with Valerian is:
*begin quote*
Nevertheless, some people have a "paradoxical reaction" to valerian. This means that instead of feeling calm or sleepy, they suddenly feel nervous, anxious, and restless after they take valerian and may experience palpitations (a feeling of a racing heart).
*end quote*
from
http://www.medformation.com/ac/CAM.nsf/consherbs/Valerianch.html

or
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D2D536659
In the end, I see nothing wrong with shelly's response. She was not being aggressive or petty. She was asking a legitimate question. Could she have written it in a more polite, flowery tone. She could have, but that is not her style. You made a statement that it would be useful for dogs with SA, she asked you if Valerian is known to "exacerbate or cause anxiety in dogs?" She asked you because she has had "strange reactions to drugs that are supposed to have sedative properties. most of them make me hyper, anxious, and actually keep me from sleeping. i don't think "bouncing off the walls" is what one would want in a dog with SA." It is a perfectly legitimate question from her own experiences.
(1) The wording of your post is a bit unclear on what you actually searched for, so I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you only searched for side effects on dogs.

Marcel and Moogli
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2F552659

This does only reference humans.
The second is recommending its use in the case of seperation anxiety. SA is a serious problem with some dogs, and often requires a great deal of training, management, drugs or a combination of the three.

Some dogs with SA are given valium(a derivative of valerian) or xanax.

I agree it shouldn't be taken lightly. Nor should anyone ever adminster medication, including herbs without consulting their own Vet first.

I personally can't imagine a person who actually would take advice from a stranger on an NG without discussing this with their vet. But I do realize idiots may do just that.
recommending it This stems from some of the sites that you didn't see in my previous paragraph. One of the ... suddenly feel nervous, anxious, and restless after they take valerian and may experience palpitations (a feeling of a racing heart).

Yes and these same people will have a similar reaction to valium. If you look
up its side effects it will probably have very similar statements.

That being side a herb does not = safer necessarily.
*end quote* from http://www.medformation.com/ac/CAM.nsf/consherbs/Valerianch.html or It is a perfectly legitimate question from her own experiences.

In my mind it was not the question but the way the question came across. Nothing wrong with asking the question as Matt did.
Gwen
(1) The wording of your post is a bit unclear on what you actually searched for, so I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you only searched for side effects on dogs.

if, indeed, she searched for information on its use in dogs, then it's no surprise she found nothing. as far as i can tell, no studies have been done of its effects on dogs. heck, very few have been done of its effects on humans, and most of those are of the "did it make you sleep better?" variety.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
The advice was "might" be. Mights are small they aren't huge IMO. And Valerian has helped me but I am not a dog.

I don't mean to pick nit either, but mights can be pretty huge if you or your dog happens to experience the side effect that a drug or herb 'might' cause. Adverse reactions to prescription drugs are given in percentages, and a 2% chance of developing an adverse reaction will seem like 100% if you're the one with the reaction.
I do agree that there is nothing wrong with saying, but herbs aren't necessarily safer. One they aren't regulated, which ... they are bad either but there is different qualities which really is yet another thing about them not being regulated.

Herbs certainly can have side effects and potentially dangerous adverse effects. Sometimes people tend to think that because they're 'natural', they're safe, and that isn't necessarily true. No regulation means, among other things, that there is no requirement to list potential side effects on the bottle. Therefore, it's up to the user to do the research into the possible side effects, toxicities, etc. involved. I do think that when someone recommends a product, that person needs to be prepared to answer questions about it.
One should always consult with their own Vet in regards to giving anything to their dogs.

Very true, except that even most vets don't know a whole lot about herbs, unless they're holistic vets. In which case, again, it's up to the dog's owner to research the product.
Mustang Sally
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