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Very true, except that even most vets don't know a whole lot about herbs, unless they're holistic vets. In which case, again, it's up to the dog's owner to research the product.

Off on a tangent, but this one appears to be coming up more and more frequently. Has anyone here had vets recommend a late night snack for dogs with empty tummy Urka-Gurkas?
There have been a dozen or so dogs I know of that have been miraculously cured, who had previously been on acid reducers or something similar under vets' orders for the problem. These folks ran my suggestion by their vets (4 or 5 different practices at least) who basically said 'Couldn't hurt to try'. If the problem is so common and the fix so simple, why don't the vets know?
Suja
You made a statement that it would be useful for dogs with SA,

She didn't make a statement recommending its use for SA. IIRC, the post was more like, "this worked for one purpose, I wonder if it could be used for these purposes." Bringing it up for discussion.
She also never said that there were no side effects on dogs. She said she couldn't find any. Apparently, the safety issue was on her mind even before she posted, since she took the time to do some research.
In the end, I see nothing wrong with shelly's response.

And I see nothing wrong with Diana's original post.

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
in thread (Email Removed) (Leah) whittled the following words:

And there wasn't.
Good Girl for Leah for defending a perfectly nice person with potentially helpful information. It's refreshing to see someone willing to go against the flow in order to try to create a more 'reasonable' environment
Diane is the one offering the advice, though, i would expect her to be able to answer my questions about ... question under the circumstances. if it exacerbates it, then i would think it would be contraindicated for treatment of SA.

If the effect on dogs is anything like the effect on humans, it relieves anxiety. Quite well, too. Not that some people/dogs couldn't have an adverse reaction (just like they could with any medication - or food, for that matter).
Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
You made a statement that it would be useful for dogs with SA,

She didn't make a statement recommending its use for SA. IIRC, the post was more like, "this worked for one purpose, I wonder if it could be used for these purposes." Bringing it up for discussion.

She said "I can also see it as being especially useful in circumstances of a dog suffering S/A or getting used to anew routine -eg. getting a dog used to being left at a time when it hasn't been b4." I can see how that can be interpreted either way.
She also never said that there were no side effects on dogs. She said she couldn't find any. Apparently, the safety issue was on her mind even before she posted, since she took the time to do some research.

She did, and if you note, I pointed that out.
In the end, I see nothing wrong with shelly's response.

And I see nothing wrong with Diana's original post.

Her post was useful, and I found nothing wrong with it either. I can see, however, where shelly would find problems with it.

I have to wonder though, if someone unknown came in here recommending something as being "especially useful for SA", if they would get treated in the same manner as Diana did, or would it be rougher. I suspect that a newbie would have gotten a treament a heck of a lot rougher.

Marcel and Moogli
in thread Marcel Beaudoin (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
I have to wonder though, if someone unknown came in here recommending something as being "especially useful for SA", if ... would it be rougher. I suspect that a newbie would have gotten a treament a heck of a lot rougher.

Nope. shelly dishes out the roughest of anyone. She (Diana) got blasted. Fortunately, we consider the source. it's very typically shelly.

But for YOU, Marcel. A man of reason, to justify shelly's behavior was just mind boggling, guttiwits wrenching.
but you have said yourself that you do not appreciate unsolicited email contacts.

Just to clarify... I have no problem with people I know contacting me personally by e-mail. In fact, there are a few people here that I regularly correspond with off rpdb.
I also wouldn't have a problem with a stranger contacting me personally. For example, a lurker here who wanted to ask me a question about something I said off the ng.
I do, however, have a HUGE problem with spam. :}
Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
She didn't make a statement recommending its use for SA. IIRC, the post was more like, "this worked for one purpose, I wonder if it could be used for these purposes." Bringing it up for discussion.

Right. Unfortunately, sedating a dog is not exactly how one goes about dealing with SA.
She also never said that there were no side effects on dogs.

Here's what she said " for dogs, without any side effects or chemical toxicity, you can calm your dog." It certainly sounded to me like she's saying that it is perfectly safe for use in dogs. Fact is that there are no studies on its effect in dogs, so this would be a pretty big stretch. We all know (I hope) that our pets don't process chemicals the same way that we do, and that pharmaceuticals that are pretty safe for use in humans can be fatal to dogs and cats.
Apparently, the safety issue was on her mind even before she posted, since she took the time to do some research.

I would certainly hope that she did at least that much, considering that she gave it to her dog.
And I see nothing wrong with Diana's original post.

I think that I would have been more comfortable with what Diana posted if she had at least added that her vet okayed it. Or if she had posted that there are potential side effects (other than being drowsy). Her post came across as entirely 'Rah, Rah, look at this wonderful, non-toxic, completely safe thing to use', when the picture is hardly that clear.
I don't see anything wrong with posts pointing that out.

Suja
Diana has always been polite and helpful. I can imagine how she was crushed when Marcel, a person of charm, sensistivity and reason supported shelly's vicious attack.

vicious attack? i questioned the advice she was giving. how that could be construed as an attack is beyond me.
I was angered by that.I'm sure shelly needs a shrink, and support, but to support THAT kind of behavior shocked me.

i questioned her advice, so you think i need meds or a shrink?
Diana's comments were well intentioned. And perhaps REALLY helpful.

that they were well intentioned, i've no doubt. i've said nothing to the contrary. her intentions are irrelevant, though.
as to whether or not her advice was helpful, i suggest that people do some serious research before following it.

a quick MedLine search uncovered the following. note especially the section on adverse reactions. note also that thus far i've been able to find no literature on the use of valerian in dogs.
Klepser TB. Klepser ME. Unsafe and potentially safe herbal therapies. (Journal Article. Meta-Analysis) American Journal of Health-System Pharmacy. 56(2):125-38; quiz 139-41, 1999 Jan
15.

Valerian (Valeriana officinalis)
German Commission E recommends valerian for use in the management of restlessness and nervous disturbances of sleep. (60) Folklore suggests that valerian has also been used as a sedative and a spasmolytic. (25)Mechanism of action. Valerian's mechanism of action has not been fully elucidated. Houghton (92) reviewed the literature on animal and human studies of the biological activity of valerian. Several compounds have been isolated from valerian and can be grouped into three categories: constituents of the volatile oil, iridoids (also known as the valepotriates), and alkaloids. Constituents of the volatile oil have been further subdivided into 12 monoterpenes and 17 sesquiterpenes.

At least 37 valepotriates and 7 alkaloids have been isolated from valerian. It is believed that valepotriates are responsible for most of the sedative activity of valerian. Valepotriates and volatile oils of valerian, including valeranone 6, kessane derivatives 3a-3f, valerenic acid 5a, and valerenal 5b, have been reported to prolong barbiturate-induced sleeping time in rodents. Valerenic acid 5a has been shown to exert pentobarbital-like central depressant activity rather than muscle relaxant or neuroleptic effects.

Valerenic acid 5a has also been found to inhibit the enzyme that catalyzes the breakdown of GABA. Some of the valepotriates have demonstrated spasmolytic properties, possibly because of effects on calcium entry or calcium binding in muscle tissue. Of the
valepotriates, valtrate and isovaltrate have antidepressant properties, and didrovaltrate has a tranquilizing effect similar to that of benzodiazepines.
Clinical efficacy for treatment of insomnia. Leathwood et al. (93) conducted a double-blind, crossover study in 128 volunteers. The participants completed a preliminary questionnaire on their sleep characteristics; data collected included sex, age, good versus poor sleeper, time to onset of sleep, number of awakenings per night, coffee intake, and smoking status. No information was collected on other medication use, alcohol use, physical activity, or food intake. The subjects were given nine sachets: three sachets containing two capsules of placebo, three sachets containing two capsules of valerian aqueous extract 200 mg, and three sachets containing two capsules of valerian 200 mg and hops
100 mg (Hovaf). On nine consecutive nights, each subjectingested a single sachet one hour before retiring. On awakening each morning, the volunteers completed a questionnaire evaluating sleep latency, sleep quality, night awakenings, dream recall, and somnolence. Compared with placebo, valerian significantly improved subjective sleep quality in habitually poor or irregular sleepers (p < 0.05). The valerian product with hops, however, performed no better than placebo. Similarly, valerian aqueous extract, not valerian-hops, resulted in significantly shorter sleep latency compared with placebo (p < 0.05). Night awakenings and dream recall were similar among the groups. Valerian-hops produced greater somnolence the next morning than placebo (p < 0.01) or valerian extract (p < 0.05). The authors were unable to explain the discrepancy in the results noted for the two valerian preparations. Objective data, such as
electroencephalographic patterns, were not evaluated.

Leathwood and Chauffard (94) performed a double-blind, randomized, three-way-crossover study in eight volunteers with mild insomnia. The participants were randomized to receive valerian aqueous extract 450 or 900 mg or placebo for 12 nights. Subjective data were collected by questionnaire, and objective data were collected by wrist-worn activity meters. Valerian 450 mg offered no benefit in subjective sleep quality, sleep latency, or sleep depth compared with placebo. The 900-mg dose offered no advantage over the 450-mg dose, and patients had significantly more sleepiness the next morning compared with the placebo group. Mean sleep latency, recorded by activity meters, was significantly shorter for valerian 450 mg (9 minutes) and valerian 900 mg (11.4 minutes) than for placebo (15.8 minutes).
Cautions. Precautions for valerian may be similar to those for benzodiazepines, barbiturates, and opiates. Caution is recommended when ingesting valerian while driving or performing other tasks requiring alertness and coordination. Valerian should also be used with caution during pregnancy.

Drug interactions. No drug interactions involving valerian have been reported, but given its sedative property, valerian may potentiate the sedative effect of medications such as barbiturates, benzodiazepines, opiates, and alcohol.

Adverse effects. Valerian may cause headaches, hangover, excitability, insomnia, uneasiness, and cardiac disturbances. Ataxia, decreased sensibility, hypothermia, hallucinations, and increased muscle relaxation have also been reported. (95) Valerian appears on the U.S. list of medicinal substances generally recognized as safe (commonly known as the GRAS list).
Dosage. German Commission E recommends that 2-3 g of the dried herb or extract be given one to several times a day. (59) As a tea, 2-3 g of valerian should be used per cup one to several times a day, with 2.5 g being equivalent to one teaspoon. The recommended dosage of valerian tincture is 0.5-1 teaspoonfuls (1-3 mL) one to several times daily.
I'm SO glad you said that. I was afraid that the attack on Diana would go undefended.

do you think so little of Diana's (i apologize to Diana for misspelling her name in other posts, that* was rude of me) psychological fortitude that you think she needs you or Leah to defend her? and, against *what? surely, if she has the gumption to post here, she's got enough backbone to discuss what she's posted.
i don't know what you think i've said to her that's so horrible, but if pointing out what i think is questionable advice is frowned upon, there's not much point in
participating here.

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
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