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If you care to name names of who uses it so effectively for agility competition I'd certainly be willing to listen.

I don't. I don't believe in dragging people's names into something without their desire to be involved. If I come across a website where someone is discussing it, I'll be happy to provide a link to that.
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
If you care to name names of who uses it so effectively for agility competition I'd certainly be willing to listen.

I don't. I don't believe in dragging people's names into something without their desire to be involved. If I come across a website where someone is discussing it, I'll be happy to provide a link to that.

Let me know. Because in years of reading agiledogs, cleanrun-l, and many smaller agility lists, taking classes, and attending seminars as well as being subscribed to CleanRun I've never, ever heard anybody suggest the ecollar for weaves. And yes, I've talked to some who have used it to reinforce a specific contact behavior. But not weaves.
As a species, we may have "invented" the concept of morality, but I would rather my dogs have the technology ... I don't have a doubt in my mind that they would be a damn sight more "moral" in its application.

Annie wouldn't.
She'd say "give me a cookie..NOW" and then zap the crap outta me for getting to the treat bar too slowly.
Don't think I'm kidding. She wasn't born, she was stitched lovingly from the tattered remnants of Satan's shadow. She's evil.

Its a good thing she's the cutest thing ever.
Ok, now the more serious reply to your post.
If a dog's response to a clicker is any indication, they will slam the handler full force with whatever it takes to achieve the reward. If that also involved a small jolt, I bet they'd do that to, if that brought them the reward and was a consistant harbinger of nummies. Its how the whole clicker deal works, even. The dog has no idea what the human's personal emotional reaction to the click is, and as such the human's response becomes irrelevant.
I both agree and disagree with you on the ecollar thing. I agree that the technology is a profound responsibility and that it can be used as an incredibly effective (in the fairest sense of the word) communication tool as well as a tool that is capable of cunducting incredible abuses. I agree that the timing required for proper use is far more than the average person (or even the average dog trainer() is willing to or capable of developing.I also think that is true for every communication tool used in dog training. And, I also agree that those that abuse dogs in the name of control and training would also abuse them without ever touching an ecollar, its also possible that those that wouldn't* abuse dogs would actually be *more careful about how they use that piece of equipment than, say, a prong collar. I've certainly seen plenty of people approach an ecollar with more humility and fear of abuse than they do collar corrections, and suddenly work on developing a deeper understanding of timing and fairness in corrections than they had previously.

One case in particular I'm thinking about is someone who used to nag the heck out of their dog on the prong collar, to the point of rendering that tool useless, but creating some habituated behavioral problems in the dog. Their trainer (wasn't me. I was still learning back then) wanted to do ecollar work with the dog. The idea of the ecollar freaked out the owner, and suddenly they realized what all their nagging had done to the dog, and that if they were going to "have to" shock their dog (it was actually low levels, but when it comes to ecollar aversives, I have the same squicky freak out factor they did), they made it a real point to finally work on their timing and application first* before applying to that piece of equipment.Do I think they're required? Ever? No, not really. But then, I think clicker training is kind of weird as well. And I say this as someone who uses a clicker for plenty of things with Annie, as I did with Finn until I saw that for most things it really stressed him out. Bottom line is that I truly believe in using the tools that stress each individual dog out *least. Sometimes that would be shaping. But, and this is where I think those that are clicker purists fall short, sometimes too many choices totally stress out the dog.

Some dogs prefer clear limitations and quick boundaries placed on what they need to and can do. I believe the nuimber of dogs that flourish with that style is far* less than old school trainers would like to believe, but then I also think that the number of dogs that flourish with pure shaping is *far less than clicker enthusiasts would like to believe.
In terms of whether or not we've evolved enough to use it..well, we have it. Once that's in place, its our responsibility to grow into it and develop the abilities that could be applied..whether or not we as individuals ever choose to apply those skills to that particular tool. To ignore it and cast it aside in the name of not being evolved enough for it is to leave it solely in the hands of those who truly shouldn't be touching them, IMO. They can be used in a new and better way without aversives..and as such can at leastbe hijacked from those who would use them to impose nothing but pain.
Tara
(not just another fence sitter, but who's direct experience of the ecollar is far less recent than yours)
(not just another fence sitter, but who's direct experience of the ecollar is far less recent than yours)

I just reread this post, and realized that this last bit may read in a way I didn't intend.
To clarify, I was trying to suggest that your more recent ecollar expeeriences are to be taken more seriously than my ancient history experiences. Also, I'm very aware that your experiences with them are far more extensive than mine. I recall you relating your experiences with them as you were actively training with them, and while I disagreed with a number of the applications, I never questioned the humanity with which you approached those situations.
I read my own words above as egositic, when the intent was actually to have my post be read with a grain of salt.
Not only am I still sleep deprived, but the lack of sleep has caused a return of the cold I was just recovering from. The cold medicine induced posts I'll be writing may just provide some much needed entertainment over the next few days.
By the way, its been really great seeing you posting again, Susan.

Tara
its been really great seeing you posting again, Susan.

Hate the ditto posts, but ditto.
I missed the stories about your pack and am always wondering why we didn't do better with our temporary names. Of course, Gigi could be Gris-Gris.

http://4dsgn.com
...The idea of the ecollar freaked out the owner, and suddenly they realized what all their nagging had done to ... it a real point to finally work on their timing and application first before applying to that piece of equipment.

E-collar (or threat of same) applied as a human aversive? The frequency of nagging decreases to avoid using the collar? Or do you think it was more of an awareness issue, like spurs often make a rider more aware of the way they apply leg to a horse?
...The idea of the ecollar freaked out the owner, and ... and application first before applying to that piece of equipment.

E-collar (or threat of same) applied as a human aversive? The frequency of nagging decreases to avoid using the collar? ... an awareness issue, like spurs often make a rider more aware of the way they apply leg to a horse?

Hmm, maybe its the cold medicine, but I'm having a tricky time distinguishing between the two. I view tham as one leading to the other, at least in this case.
Tara
E-collar (or threat of same) applied as a human aversive? ... aware of the way they apply leg to a horse?

Hmm, maybe its the cold medicine,

Nah, probably my communications skills, or lack of same.
but I'm having a tricky time distinguishing between the two. I view tham as one leading to the other, at least in this case.

Understood. I just found it interesting that the e-collar was something the human would work to avoid using. Tangentially, I wondered whether the effectiveness of using an e-collar might be tied to the handler's greater sensitivity to the power of his/her actions.
Don't mind me, I'm a-ramblin'. Back to cow data!
egositic

I think I just invented yet another word.
Correction: I think my cold medicine just invented a new word.

Egositic: the relationship between the host body and an invading ego.

Tara
(yeah, I need a nap)
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