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Of course, Gigi could be Gris-Gris.

Keep saying that and she might have a new home amidst a crapload of Golden haired beauties.
Tara
But, and this is where I think those that are clicker purists fall short, sometimes too many choices totally stress out the dog.

I also think that the number of dogs that flourish with pure shaping is far less than clicker enthusiasts would like to believe.

Yep. My experience with highly intelligent dogs is that they get frustrated, and either shut down or blow up, if they aren't given clear information as to what you DON'T want as well as what you do want. My experience is also that they learn much faster**, and do a lot better at retaining what they're taught, if you give them that information. Which is why I'm a firm believer in the "no reward marker".
Yep. My experience with highly intelligent dogs is that they get frustrated, and either shut down or blow up, if they aren't given clear information as to what you DON'T want as well as what you do want.

Sarah, meet Harriet. Confuse her, and she is equally likely to shower you with invective as she is to shut down completely.

Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide.
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Keep saying that and she might have a new home amidst a crapload of Golden haired beauties.

It's nice to have a contrasting color to make blondes more beautiful.

She could be Ghede.

http://4dsgn.com
Tara orated:
its been really great seeing you posting again, Susan.

then montana wildhack quipped:
Hate the ditto posts, but ditto.

Thanks, it's fun being here, although I promised myself I wouldn't get seduced into spending too much time here. And yet, here I am with obedience class in 1/2 hour. ;-) Y'all are WAY too much fun!! It's like scouring the universe for people who like to talk about all the same stuff I do, while the people I actually know would probably have glazed over eyes by now, glancing at their watches, saying "Uh huh. Well, gotta go now..."
Opps Gotta Go NOW!
I missed the stories about your pack and am always wondering why we didn't do better with our temporary names. Of course, Gigi could be Gris-Gris.

You evil eeevil woman. ('Gree-Gree' was the "Green Girl" green ribbon in Shammie's litter. 'Green Girl' got shortened to GreeGir, then GreeGree, and since hubby names all our dogs after songs, when she was the last pup left and I had NO intention of keeping her (in spite of her tugging the shoestrings complete with growling and snarling of the last prospective adopter for a good 5 minutes non-stop) - I walked into my house to hear him playing Dr. John's album "Gris-Gris Gumbo Ya Ya" and I knew I might as well register her microchip... ;-)
Stories someday - she's a hoot and a half. VERY high drive but tempered with the sweetest personality I've ever seen (except her momma, that is ;->)
Gris-Gris' my "sugar-coated jelly-filled dognut" (although sometimes she's a jalepeno popper, too)
DagNABit! I GOTTA go!!
S, yada yada
S,S,& G-G
But, and this is where I think those that are clicker purists fall short, sometimes too many choices totally stress out the dog.

I also think that the number of dogs that flourish with pure shaping is far less than clicker enthusiasts would like to believe.

Yep. My experience with highly intelligent dogs is that they get frustrated, and either shut down or blow up, if they aren't given clear information as to what you DON'T want as well as what you do want.

I think a lot of that may have to do with how well you are splitting, how high the rate of reinforcement and how well the dog understands the game. Generally when I see dogs who are frustrated, shut down or blow up, they are A) a crossover who lacks confidence or B) you're not giving them nearly enough information.
Sandy in OK inscribed:
I think a lot of that may have to do with how well you are splitting, how high the rate ... or blow up, they are A) a crossover who lacks confidence or B) you're not giving them nearly enough information.

or C) extremely food motivated combined with understanding the game SO well that they've trained the handler to be their personal Pez disenser - e.g. "I'm being cute* here and *this* is a very funny behavior and so now it is *your job to give me a treat for it NOW!!'

Susan "Learning-As-We-Go" Fraser
and the (Master Instructor) AuH2Ok9s
SheBop (an example of A), Gris-Gris (an example of B) and Shammie (the poster-dog of C)
Generally when I see dogs who are frustrated, shut down or blow up, they are A) a crossover who lacks confidence or B) you're not giving them nearly enough information.

B, as I already quite clearly stated:
The problem is that the more intelligent dogs prefer to be given ALL available information rather than to be left guessing as to what is an incorrect choice.
To some extent, WRT my own personal dogs, it has to do not only with them being a lot more intelligent than the average bear, but with the breed backgrounds being the sort which requires completely independent thought and problem-solving - IOW, breeds whose work entails little or no input from humans.
or C) extremely food motivated combined with understanding the game SO well that they've trained the handler to be their ... is your job to give me a treat for it NOW!!'

Which means that's how they've been taught the game works. You get what you reinforce. As to being extremely food motivated, one of the earliest skills we work on is zen.