I used to be very, very against e-collars. I'm still against poor use of them (or any other tool!). Until I really learned, in person, from someone I trusted, I thought the same way as many of the objectors do. I think it's a good idea to see things in person. Reading is not the same, a video is not the same, and even personalized conversation is not the same. SEE how things can be used. FEEL what they feel like (even if you think that dogs = people except rubber shoes - go barefoot!). I have. I changed my mind.
I still don't use them for most things, never intend to. Not because of any evil, pain or aversive factor though, but because I think that anything I have to carry (even around my neck or in my pocket or around my waist) is a PITA.
I doubt that most of the hysterical types are willing to go see how e-collars can be used, but it's a thought.

Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
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I used to be very, very against e-collars. I'm still against poor use of them (or any other tool!). Until ... most of the hysterical types are willing to go see how e-collars can be used, but it's a thought.

And yet, I'm not sure how using the collar for aversion training (to feces) is "modern" use. And I don't think I was the only person confused by the concept of using an ecollar for weave poles.
And yet, I'm not sure how using the collar for aversion training (to feces) is "modern" use.

It's not. It's classic.
And I don't think I was the only person confused by the concept of using an ecollar for weave poles.

I understand that, but then none have seen it used for such.
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
I understand that, but then none have seen it used for such.

And yet, some of us with far more agility experience than you have are saying it's a very poor idea. At the very least it's a totally unneccessary tool for the job at hand. My bet is that it's probably also ineffective in creating the kind of weave performance I want to have and I want my students to have. If you care to name names of who uses it so effectively for agility competition I'd certainly be willing to listen.
I agree with Janet. Any tool when used properly is ok but when abused and not understood that's a whole different thing.
Out of desperation I purchased one two years ago for Lady. Once she was spooked by noises outside at night the barking was non stopable. Nothing we did would stop her the second she was out the door she took to wildly barking. Living in town this was not an option. I had to stop it before I got a complaint from the neighbors. I bought one of the e-collars that I control it has a tone button and a button for stimulation along with 10 levels. It was the best money I ever spent. The barking stopped within a matter of 3 trips out the door at night. The critter chasing took just one lesson to stop. I can honestly say she's a very well behaved dog and I seldom ever need to use the collar any.
Celeste
I agree with Janet. Any tool when used properly is ok but when abused and not understood that's a whole different thing.

Ya' know, I finally have just about enough time and distance from the horrors of abusive training (and make no mistake, people who abuse ecollars would be abusive if the only tools they had were their fists and feet) that I can look at it more objectively and dispassionately now.
And mulling over it to respond to this thread has made me realize is that I truly believe that the ecollar is an amazing and potentially wonderful technology. And that there are people who are geniuses at devising training systems to use it's instantaneous dispassionate ability to communicate complex concepts to vastly different species. And that used properly it could enhance any creature's willingness and understanding in any venue by increasing or decreasing the occurance of any type of behavior in any animal (humans included).

BUT I also believe that humans are not evolved enough to handle this power. Pretty much the same way I feel about nuclear energy, or the Internet, for that matter. Where there is enormous potential there are people who will twist its use with evil intent.
As a species, we may have "invented" the concept of morality, but I would rather my dogs have the technology to inflict that type of abuse on me than vice versa, because I don't have a doubt in my mind that they would be a damn sight more "moral" in its application.
Susan Fraser, owned and trained by the AuH2Ok9s:
SheBop, Shammie and Gris-gris
Do you have any videos demonstrating the proper way to molest children as you do? I'm sure there are plenty of pedophiles out there that could learn from your experiences.
Can you also explain how you sold a scam black box DDR thing to people and got away with it? I'm sure others out there would love to learn how you scam people.
Can you explain why you promised to leave this group when you lied and you didn't? You EVEN admitted to lying and you are still here. Why are you still here?
@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
As a species, we may have "invented" the concept of morality, but I would rather my dogs have the technology ... I don't have a doubt in my mind that they would be a damn sight more "moral" in its application.

My dogs want to know if there are hot dogs on the line. Never mind, they are taking the fifth on the whole morality thing.I don't think dogs would do any better, necessarily. The problem is that people assume that we are that much better than the animals who are just out to get their needs met however they can. The fact that humans are capable of more analysis and control of their actions and reactions only speaks to potential. How that pans out in the reality is up to the person. You can choose to use your reasoning ability to continue to get what you want no matter what that costs others or you can use it to find balance and "humanity" in how you deal with others.

My dogs might weld my *** to the ground with a shock collar if they could get everything in the fridge out of it. But they don't pretend to be superior beings. Well, other than the chihuahua, anyway. And she wouldn't use the ecollar in the first place because she has already trained my daughter to the dog owner equivalent of a top retriever crossed with a shutzhund champion with other methods. But then Faith is not only a superior being, she also chose the right pet to begin with.
Paula
I don't think dogs would do any better, necessarily. ... My dogs might weld my *** to the ground with a shock collar if they could get everything in the fridge out of it.

Nah, they already have the equivilent - a mouth full of teeth and faster reflexes. And yet I taunt them by eating yummies from the fridge in their salivating presence all the time. Haven't had my throat ripped out yet, even when they're starving (which is of course, all the time, them being Goldens, ya know).
But they don't pretend to be superior beings.

My point exactly. *IF* they were to use their teeth on me, it would definatley not be just to bolster their egos or look tough in front of their buds. And I'm quite positive that winning a ribbon or getting a title wouldn't be a priority either. For survival? Maybe (last hot dog on earth and all that). but I betchya if there were enough hot dogs they'd let me have some.
Well, other than the chihuahua, anyway.

LOL! I grew up with one. And yes, I'm still one well-trained hoomin!

Susan Fraser and the AuH2Ok9s:
SheBop, Shammie and Gris-Gris
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