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I have done precisely that for hours and hours. Hey, I got her to come, stay, take, and heel, didn't I? She just can't distinquish between sit, down and stand.

Most of the time that is because the person accidntally taught it as an action, not a position. Nothing you said convinces me the dog is dumb. Yes, I think there are dogs that are less clever, but it is very rare for a "dumb" dog to offer a series of behaviors desparately trying to figure out what you want. People are not born dog trainers. It is a learned skill. And learning to change or adapt to new situations is also a learned skill. Different dogs learn in different ways. The best help you can possibly get is to work with someone who is skilled in teaching dogs who can watch you and the dog and offer suggestions.

Stanely Coren did his little book on the intelleigence of dogs. Border Collies came out on top. Everyone assumed that meant they would be a piece of cake to train. But in fact it is exceptionally easy to frustrate because (a) the notice very small differences and resond to those small differences as if they are meaningful - in a skilled trainer that is very useful - in a novice trainer it just gets confusing (b) they are forever experimenting to test out the exact parameters for the requested behavior.

A lot of Tollers are very like the BC, this one sounds like it is very bright, but confused. It is up to you to get some guidence, in person, on how to unconfuse the dog.

Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com /
http://dogplay.com/Shop/dogplayshop.htm
I have done precisely that for hours and hours. Hey, I got her to come, stay, take, and heel, didn't I? She just can't distinquish between sit, down and stand.

I second the advice to get someone else to watch you & the dog to offer input. An outsider can often spot something right away, something you never would have thought you or the dog was doing. If you choose not to do this then you might want to try reteaching using different words. Try 'Up' for stand and 'Tummy' for down...or something similar. You can change 'sit' also or just leave that one as it is. I inadvertantly taught a foster dog to respond more reliably to "park it" than to "sit" because I, being an inconsistent human, sometimes forget to use the one-word commands I taught.

Tara
John, it ain't the dog. It's you.
Have a professional trainer help you out.
God only knows what you could be doing wrong, but trust me, it's you. Not the dog. And a professional will be able to tell you quickly what it is that you're doing wrong and then don't do that anymore.

Tollers are very, very smart little dogs, and generally very easy to train, provided the trainer knows what he's doing.

Stop blaming the dog.
It only makes you seem like the dumb one here.
Get some in-person help, before you screw up your dog even more.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
F&@k Cindy Sheehan...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19179 http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/lileks081705.html http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19188 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19187 http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson081905.html http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-tent21aug21,0,1957220.story
I have done precisely that for hours and hours. Hey, I got her to come, stay, take, and heel, didn't I? She just can't distinquish between sit, down and stand.

Start over again with new words, hand gestures, whatever that are very easily distinguished from each other. Whatever happened before, there was confusion with what you want from the commands. Trying to correct confusion that is already reinforced from lots of repetitions is harder than starting over again from scratch. Make sure the new commands not only don't sound or look like each other, but that you find ways of rewarding the exact behavior at the right time so the dog is not confused as to what pleased you.
I have a dog right now who confuses "go potty" with "sit" at times because squatting and sitting are similar and my daughter's timing isn't all that good. So we spent some time telling her to "go potty" and ignoring her completely when she sat but didn't pee, no matter how expectantly she looked at us. When she peed, she was rewarded as soon as she was peeing or pooping, but not when she was assuming the position, even though that might be the point where the humans knew that she was going to go potty as commanded. It had confused her even though it didn't my other daughter's dog, so we adjusted our cues and timing to make it clearer for Sammie.

Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
I have done precisely that for hours and hours. Hey, ... I? She just can't distinquish between sit, down and stand.

I second the advice to get someone else to watch you & the dog to offer input. An outsider can ... "park it" than to "sit" because I, being an inconsistent human, sometimes forget to use the one-word commands I taught.

Punk will sometimes blow the girls off when they tell her to come. But if they tell her to sit, she will come running to sit in front of them because she knows that will always have a great payoff. They did the always consistent reward for sit that you usually recommend for come and did the common mistake of sometimes calling her to come when she was in trouble or going to be taken in when she wanted out or vice versa. It is funny to see kids calling around the house or yard for their dog to sit when it isn't there with them, but it's easier for them to go with what they taught her that has the results they want.

Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
A lot of Tollers are very like the BC, this one sounds like it is very bright, but confused.

My first toller would obey commands he hadn't been taught because he could figure out what was intended. We never had a chance to train him on the invisible fence because he knew what it was immediately. Took the flags down on the third day.
The second toller needed the flags up for 9 months because she simply couldn't remember where it was.
Some are bright, some are not.
I don't claim to be a great trainer; if I was, I wouldn't have asked for help. But I did train her to several commands, and with your kind help will make a try at the ones she is confused about.
I have taught her to sit, down, stand, stay, take, heel, and come.

No, you haven't.
take, heel and stay she is fine with; but she does not know thedifference between the others.

If she were trained her to sit, down, and stand, she would know the difference between them. Ergo, you have NOT trained her to sit, down, and stand.
If she is standing and I tell her either sit or down, she will randomly down or sit and look up in hopes she is right. If I repeat the command she will try something else and hope for the best.

Yep. You have NOT taught her to sit, down, and stand; somehow, you confused her in your attempts at doing so. She apparently thinks both sit and down mean "move out of a stand into one of these two positions, and keep doing it until the human takes the presssure off".
I don't know how long I have spent on this, but she just doesn't get it.

Probably because in all that time you've spent, all you've done is increase her confusion. You were not clear enough in teaching the commands in the first place, and probably didn't make sure she fully understood one before moving on to the next. (I'm betting that you taught them close together, or even simultaneously.)
And all you've done with drilling her is to repeat your mistake, whatever it was.
No, it is not me; her predecessor (also a toller) learned every command perfectly in 5 minutes.

Yes, it is you; it's not your current dog's fault that you've confused her, nor that she doesn't intuitively understand you as well as the first dog did. I suspect that part of it has to do with you switching training methods, and not really understanding how the method you were using works. (I don't think you really understood the FIRST method, either, since you say you hurt her with the choke collar when you tried the first method; choke collars are not supposed to hurt.)
I would go back to square one, and teach her ONE thing at a time, as if she had no idea what it meant - probably "down", because that's the most useful one. Don't spend huge amounts of time on it, or drill her repeatedly; one or two SHORT (10 minutes, MAX) sessions per day, and keep them low-key. I would teach her that ONE thing, and ONLY that one thing, until she is happy and confident doing it.
When you think she's secure doing it - which should take a week or three - wait another week. Then, and only then, re-introduce the second command. While you are working on the second one, I wouldn't switch back and forth between the two; I would work only on that second command until she was secure in THAT one.
Begin at the beginning again. The dog already has demonstrated ... sit. "Dogs name , sit." Dog sits then: "Good GIRL!"

I have done precisely that for hours and hours.

Actually maybe that is part of the problem too. Try relaxing things up a bit. Hours and hours of drilling sounds like a lot of work, no fun for either of you and will only solidify her current confusion and your frustration.
Hey, I got her to come,
stay, take, and heel, didn't I?

Well, no, not really. What she's learned is: sit?stand?ohgoddoeshewantmeto stay?sit?isthisright?heel?sit?howsthis?isthisright?
She just can't distinquish between sit, down and stand.

FWIW I made the mistake once of trying to teach too much too soon and in trying to interpet what I wanted, I got a lot of this type of anxious behavior. What fixed it was to forget everything we'd worked on so far, go back to the beginning again, do things in short lessons, keep it fun, consistent and we didn't move a single step further until I was confident the dog understood clearly what to do. Once one action was rock solid under various conditions, then we moved onto the next one, building upon a series of successes. What is her name, btw?
Terri

Your rubber and I'm chocolate, whatever you say bounces off me and lands in fondue. No, wait, I told that wrong. Wiblur-alt.religion.kibology
But I did train her to several commands, and with your kind help will make a try at the ones she is confused about.

I would need to see you working with the dog to provide help. It is common for a person to honestly and sincerely believe they are doing one thing, but in fact they are doing another. Working with someone is the smart way to solve your problem. If you can't or won't then video tape yourself training over the period of a week or so and watch it half a dozen times. I'm not sure it will help if you don't know what you are looking for, but it is better than just blindly trying new things. Unconcious behaviors on the part of the trainer have sabotaged plenty of trainers.

Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com /
http://dogplay.com/Shop/dogplayshop.htm