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No! They're only 11 and 12 years old. Forcing children that age to witness violence of that nature would be ... done something wrong and there's nothing you can do to fix it. It's a cloud that stays forever, never clean.

dear dog. please tell me this is some april fool's satire or something. you don't really think that holding two pre-teens responsible for their actions will scar them for life, do you? when's the last time you watched television? went to a movie? these kids have already seen far more death and violence than you can imagine. making them aware of their actions will hardly even faze them.
-kelly
My children, dog not withstanding, are well-behaved, socially adjusted, do extremely well in school, and score extremely high on the state tests.

But we're talking about the dog. What your kids did to your dog is wrong, and they need to understand that and learn not to do it anymore. So, "dog notwithstanding" kind of misses the point.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

On 3/30/2004, House Republicans killed a proposal to impose spending caps to offset the cost of the GOP tax cuts
Things like, putting a pillowcase on their head and making noises at him, to get him to do the howling bark that beagles do.

Is THAT how his nose got bitten? Was the other incident similar? That puts a whole new perspective on the ... the probable scenario of the dog giving several ignored warnings, and then attacking to protect himself from a perceived threat.

It's very, very likely that the dog DID give a warning but they kids didn't know how to read it. A little lip curl, or a flattening of the ears, or a hard stare, etc, etc. Dogs speak in very subtle cues sometimes. It's also entirely possible that the kids didn't tell their parents about any overt warning I doubt they would come walking up saying he growled at us but we kept trying to provoke him and he bit us.

Kristen and
Kali CDX, CGC, TDIA, TT
www.kristenandkali.com
you don't really think that holding two pre-teens responsible for their actions will scar them for life, do you?

I agree. If they were 5 years old, it would be a different story.

PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.
Perhaps you should take the kids to the vet with ... of seeing the consequences of their actions may wakethem up.

No! They're only 11 and 12 years old. Forcing children that age to witness violence of that nature would be ... would create guilt, nightmare type guilt, irrepairable eventual life threatening guilt. For children that age, you want to build conscience.

Oh, boy. 11 and 12 shouldn't be preceded by the word "only" in this instance.
My fear would be that these two little sadists would think it was neat and cool to watch the dog die. Not that they'd have any nightmares or any guilt.
11 and 12 is way, way, way too old to be clueless about tormenting dogs. Myrecommendation is that these kids be hauled to the local mental health for an eval., without delay.
Guilt is the knowledge that you've done
something wrong and there's nothing you can do to fix it. It's a cloud that stays forever, never clean. Conscience ... a promise to do better in the future that wipes out all past misbehavior. These kids were acting like kids.

Nope. They were acting like sadists in training. 11 and 12 is too old to be "clueless" about how to treat another living thing - even for kids who weren't raised with pets.
You'd be alarmed if this 11 and 12yo were sadistic and cruel to one of their playmates. You should be similarly alarmed at how they treated this dog.

I, too, am quite disturbed by the parenting, and how this went on long enough for the dog to decide to nail the 12yo.
flick 100785
Kids do stupid things. They play
near dangerous precipes. They don't think through the consequences of their actions. Parents (under the best of circumstances, not this ... death. In the long run, that will have the most long term effect on the children and the society. Lia
My fear would be that these two little sadists would think it was neat and cool to watch the dog die. Not that they'd have any nightmares or any guilt.

Oh, come on.
They don't sound like "sadists" at all. They sound like two pre-teen boys who don't know enough about how dogs tick going over the top in what they considered "play."
I would be surprised if they AND the dad didn't learn a valuable lesson from this tragedy.
PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.
My fear would be that these two little sadists would ... die. Not that they'd have any nightmares or any guilt.

Oh, come on. They don't sound like "sadists" at all. They sound like two pre-teen boyswho don't know enough about ... what they considered "play." I would be surprised if they AND the dad didn't learn a valuable lessonfrom this tragedy.

I insist, it isn't normal at this age for kids to tease animals. Even if they haven't been around them before. Maybe especially if they haven't been around them before.
Younger children, okay. Younger ones may unwittingly tease a dog, or take its treat and get snapped at.
But the situation described indicates a real lack of parental involvement AND a couple of little meanies.
flick 100785
PetsMart Pet Trainer My Kids, My Students, My Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.
Then we disagree. (Leah's in there too.) I've read over my original statement and stand by it. I believe forcing children that age to watch a dog they love being killed is cruel and unusual. I'll let it rest now, not repeat myself and move on to this:
This whole family needs family counseling, not just the kids, not just the father, certainly not just the mother who is curiously absent from this discussion. The other point that's been absent is that teaching children responsibility to animals isn't only about teaching them what not to do. (Don't tease the Beagle until he feels compelled to bite.) It is also about teaching them what to do instead. Show them how to play nice, walk the dog on a leash, feed, train. Something as simple as explaining why we don't give a dog treats from our own dish one minute and then eat at the dog's level without feeding him the next, that's an important lesson.
As for the children's ages, where did we get the idea that children will grow in their moral development without example and guidance? A baby will learn how to walk without being taught, but a 12 year old who has never had it explained to him why treating a dog in a certain way is wrong and never had an adequate example and never had small mistakes corrected before they turn into big ones will be at a 5 year old's level of (mis)understanding. That's why I'm not in favor of bringing out the big guns punishment like watching their dog die.
Lia
This whole family needs family counseling,

Good lord that's one of the most presumptuous things I've read on a ng in a long time. Talk about an armchair diagnosis.

Tara
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