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before you all yell at me, I wave the white surrender flag. Maui and I are going to sign up ... come command) when I have treats. Is this not a dominance issue then? or is it still that too? thanks.

Hi Maui,
I don't like using treats as a method of training (I know lots of people use treats and get results but all I'm doing is giving you a different view). I see it when you use treats to illicit a response the dog is motivated by the treats which I think is wrong, I want a dog to be motivated by "me", I believe training is all about communication between the dog and handler and that is best achieved without treats ( and to a lesser extent even toys as even then the dogs motivation is the toy not the handler but toys etc can easily be manipulated to your advantage).

I spent a lot of time teaching the dog to pay attention to me and wanting and enjoying being with me.
One method I use for instance is to get the dog to run through various things (maybe come, sit, down, stay,(walk away a bit) come, heel, sit) then hold the dog on a sit beside me and in a very upbeat manner tell him he's a good dog and get him excited (while still holding the sit), the dog learns to anticipate the release and when I tell him "FREE GOOD BOY!!" he bounds away very excited and happy, but it's that last bit that has the most impact the bounding away and being happy so next time you ask them to do the routine they get all excited and keen to work anticipating the release. It's a bit hard to explain but it works very well and makes the dog willing and happy to work.
Anyway it's just a thought that there are other ways of training without using treats etc.
Paul
before you all yell at me, I wave the white ... for doggy classes today or tomorrow. they start feb 9.

Hurray! Hope you both have a great time.

me too but they said the puppy doesn't even come the first time. any idea why?

yes, he does this. he has also learned to sit down, jump and lay down without a verbal cue.
"Come" and "leave it", as you've described using them, happen in different environments without a clear visual cue.

yes, I see the difference.
IOW, if you offer your hand, it's probably "shake". But "come" or "leave it" don't have a consistent set of ... completely NOT you, and you can see why it might take a little more time to phase out the treats.

yeah, I imagine I'll need treats for a while yet with these tricks
Now, the other thing about using treats is teaching the dog that sometimes cookies are clearly visible and will be ... think the only sensible time to comply to a command is when they can see the reward ahead of time.

for example, if I have a treat nearby, he ... then he gets a trade with the leave it command.

So, if he hears the command, he knows it's "no treat"? Unless you're "trading up" (trading something marvelous for something ... that the verbal "leave it" means "no cookie for you, bubba". Not much incentive to obey in that, is there?

well, the trade is usually for his own toys which he gets whenever he wants (they live in a basket on the floor). he probably doesn't like the trade too much I guess.
before you all yell at me, I wave the white ... dominance issue then? or is it still that too? thanks.

Hi Maui, I don't like using treats as a method of training (I know lots of people use treats and ... and happy to work. Anyway it's just a thought that there are other ways of training without using treats etc.

that sounds great. I hope Maui does that eventually.
Maui and I

Hurray! Hope you both have a great time.

me too but they said the puppy doesn't even come the first time. any idea why?

Yes, it's so that the instructor can talk to you for a bit without the distraction of all those dogs.
I just went to my first class (without Queenie) last night. The teacher talked about her background, training philosophy, and did a demo with her own dog of the things our dogs would learn in class.

She also showed us how to get started at home this week. We are to practice "sit," "look," and "come" (just starting with the dog on a 6 foot leash, you step back a couple of steps, and say "come" then "sit" then treat).
I'm glad I went even though Zoe and I had classes from this same instructor, I had forgotten the beginning training tasks/steps other than "sit" which Queenie is learning rapidly. This morning I held the 2 dogs bowls in the air and said Sit! and both dogs plunked right down in unison. It gave me quite a thrill!
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the new dog, "cheez, you people are so demanding! but I'll do whatever it takes to get my breakfast!"
Maui and I me too but they said the puppy doesn't even come the first time. any idea why?

Yes, it's so that the instructor can talk to you for a bit without the distraction of all those dogs. ... background, training philosophy, and did a demo with her own dog of the things our dogs would learn in class.

I see.
She also showed us how to get started at home this week. We are to practice "sit," "look," and "come" (just starting with the dog on a 6 foot leash, you step back a couple of steps, and say "come" then "sit" then treat).

sounds good. I'll have to try the leash with the "come" command. I read somewhere that it is good to have the dog on the leash for "fetch" and "come" but I forgot about that until you just reminded me. thanks
me too but they said the puppy doesn't even come the first time. any idea why?

To give the humans a running start. Believe me, the dogs catch on a whole lot faster than the humans. The other thing is that "first night" is plenty confusing without dogs (getting everyone checked in, their paperwork in order, paid up, etc.). WITH dogs, well, it's bedlam. I happen to enjoy bedlam, but it's not everyone's idea of a learning environment!

Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo:
Raise A Fund, ANZ Babylon Ranger, ANZ MarmaDUKE, and Rotund Rhia
me too but they said the puppy doesn't even come the first time. any idea why?

This is a good sign. It tells me that they plan on teaching YOU. The first class is to start with basic principles, make sure everyone understands safe behavior, get a clear picture of goals, and set realistic expectations.

Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com /
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The other thing is that "first night" is plenty confusing without dogs (getting everyone checked in, their paperwork in order, paid up, etc.). WITH dogs, well, it's bedlam.

First night with dogs can be downright dangerous since soo many owners don't know any better than to let their dogs jump around at the end of the leash threatening other dogs.

Things I used to do on first night of class:
1) Filling out a questionnaire about the dog's personality,living situation, what the owner is having problems with, and what the owner wants to get out of the class. This was the most important thing. It gave me some clues over how to handle things the following week and what problems to emphasize to over the session - if there were a lot of dogs with jumping-up problems, for instance, that topic would get special attention.
2) How to walk in and out of the building. That might soundobvious, but 20 people with dogs trying to into or out of the same doorway at the same time is actually a pretty touchy situation - no matter how friendly your dog is, others might be less so. If everyone knows the basic etiquette for this situation this goes much smoother and safer.
3) How to gently convince a barky dog to shut up. There'snothing more frustrating to an instructor to have to spend the first 10 minutes of the first class teaching one student to quiet her dog while all the other
students stand around thinking about how boring the class is.
4) How to handle your dog when the instructor needs to talkor demonstrate something. I kept my classes moving pretty well, but there are times when a new exercise needs to be introduced or an issue needs to be discussed. During those times I've found that things go best if the students sat on the ground and cuddled with their dogs, so I always covered that in my first night of class.
5) Going over what to bring to class the following week -type of leashes & collars, food or other motivators, etc.
6) General discussion of the class: what was going to becovered, the importance of consistency in training, the use and misuse of motivators, the fact that I would be giving them homework, and so on.
7) Demonstration of how to start teaching the basics -sit, down, stay and come. The dogs ALWAYS did better if they'd had some practice at home first instead of trying to learn something new in a new and distracting environment.
Of course, all instructors handle first night differently; those were the subjects I covered and is just to give you a general idea of what to expect. Don't be surprised if yours does it somewhat differently.
Dianne