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On 30 May 2007 02:38:15 GMT, Marcel Beaudoin
Oops! Wrong page. http://www.sfspca.org/Viewpoint/1030.shtml And it's actually the SFSPCA (I ... Miller's web site, so presumably she "concurs" with them. Heh.

But just saying that is not the same as listing "...any group or any one of prominence in the dog world that did not approve of Cesar. She also listed every negative item written about him."

No, but that's what was implied by comments like:
"DOG TRAINERS, EXPERTS CONCUR:
"Cesar Millan's philosophy is not ours."
Again, dog trainers and experts DO NOT CONCUR!
That's just a blatant lie.
I'd also be willing to wager money that more trainers and experts approve of Millan than disprove.
As for what is on the SFSPCA's website, just because she agrees with Jean Donaldson's article

Do you think it's professional to have on your web site a picture of another trainer with a red line drawn through it?
Don't confuse her right to be critical (of course she can be critical!) with her extremely unprofessional way of going about it.
does not also mean that she has any control over what other things that the SFSPCA has written on that page, or that it was even there when the article was first written.

When you draw a red line through a trainer's picture and link to derogatory and negative articles written about him, that's highly unprofessional, especially when many of those comments made about him are pure BUNKUM.
That being said, she (Pat Miller) does not agree with Cesar' method. However, by linking to JD's article, she also presumably agrees with JD's statement that "...less invasive (i.e. without pain or force) techniques must be competently tried and exhausted before more invasive techniques attempted."

What pain??? Have you ever seen his show? If not, you should at least watch it before passing on bogus information, a la Pat Miller.

Yes, force is sometimes used, but not without justification. So what?

These dogs have problems! The mission should be to get the dogs past those problems, so that they can not only avoid the gallows, but live happy, contented lives.
Pat Miller is even against the use of collar pops!

She's the extremist, not Millan.

Handsome Jack Morrison
Prouder than ever to not be a member of the "reality-based community"!

And another one bites the dust! Australian scientist changes his mind about "global warming": http://mises.org/story/2571
Yo! Melinda Shore! Read this article! She's talking about *you.* http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=510
in rec.pets.dogs.behavior, Handsome Jack Morrison
But just saying that is not the same as listing ... Cesar. She also listed every negative item written about him."

No, but that's what was implied by comments like: "DOG TRAINERS, EXPERTS CONCUR: "Cesar Millan's philosophy is not ours." Again, dog trainers and experts DO NOT CONCUR! That's just a blatant lie.

Not really. The page has a list of trainers and "experts" undeneath the comment. It was quite clear (to me at least) that the comment was referring to the dog trainers and experts listed below the comment.
I'd also be willing to wager money that more trainers and experts approve of Millan than disprove.

I think that most trainers and experts agree that he is getting the word out to people that dog training *is* something that needs to be done with most dogs. Whether they agree with his techniques or not, I don't know. I suspect that it would be quite similar to the breakdown between PPers and not-PPers.
As for what is on the SFSPCA's website, just because she agrees with Jean Donaldson's article

Do you think it's professional to have on your web site a picture of another trainer with a red line drawn through it?

That I think is kinda silly and childish, yes. Whether she even knows or approved it is another question.

Marcel Beaudoin and Moogli
Not really. The page has a list of trainers and "experts" undeneath the comment. It was quite clear (to me at least) that the comment was referring to the dog trainers and experts listed below the comment.

That page you are referring to is not on Pat Miller's website, nor was the article described above written by her.

Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Not really. The page has a list of trainers and ... to the dog trainers and experts listed below the comment.

That page you are referring to is not on Pat Miller's website, nor was the article described above written by her.

Yes, I guess I didn't make that clear enough.

Marcel Beaudoin and Moogli
Hi Y'all,
I think most of you know what I was attempting to say. The point I was trying to make. You don't have to agree with me. I think Pat Miller is likely a very good trainer and dog behaviorist etc. I would like to attend her classes or seminars. It is one thing to write a book review about Cesar's book. I thought the graphics and short list of other dog world people that do not approve of him a bit much.
I am suspicious of people that have to talk negatively about other people to make themselves look good. How does that further her position?
Ya know how emotional I am? I am so emotional that even if it was Janet Boss's face with the slash and the red circle around it I would have been offended. Does that help clear up what I was trying to say? That won't happen though.
Pat Miller is entitled to her point of view. She gave it in the book review of Cesar's book. Wasn't that enough?
Cesar doesn't critique other behaviorists. He even encourages seeking out a dog trainer of your choice.
I agree with Cesar's advice. I also have trouble implementing it. I think Pat Miller is jealous just as Pfoley said. I try to learn from anyone willing to offer positive advice that makes sense to me. I think her overkill when it comes to Cesar may be a deterrent to people other than myself. Too bad, because she seems to be very good in her field.
I can learn something from almost anyone.
Be Free..Judy
It is one thing to write a book review about Cesar's book. I thought the graphics and short list of other dog world people that do not approve of him a bit much.

PAT MILLER DID NOT CREATE A LIST OF "OTHER DOG WORLD PEOPLE." Can you not read, woman?!
I am suspicious of people that have to talk negatively about other people to make themselves look good. How does that further her position?

It does not. And, funnily enough, as far as I can tell, she did not do the thing you are accusing her of doing.
I think her overkill when it comes to Cesar may be a deterrent to people other than myself.

When did writing a book review become overkill? Lordy!

Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
On 30 May 2007 15:20:44 GMT, Marcel Beaudoin
No, but that's what was implied by comments like: "DOG ... and experts DO NOT CONCUR! That's just a blatant lie.

Not really.

Yes, really.
There was one* expert and *one dog trainer noted on that list!
The page has a list of trainers and "experts" undeneath the comment.

Yeah, one dog trainer (Pat Miller) and one expert (Andrew Luescher).
It was quite clear (to me at least) that the comment was referring to the dog trainers and experts listed below the comment.

I'd also be willing to wager money that more trainers and experts approve of Millan than disprove.

I think that most trainers and experts agree that he is getting the word out to people that dog training *is* something that needs to be done with most dogs. Whether they agree with his techniques or not, I don't know.

Well, I do.
And it's not really training, it's just good handling.
I suspect that it would be quite similar to the breakdown between PPers and not-PPers.

PPers are a small minority of the dog training community, Marcel.

You'd never know that by reading anything written by Pat Miller.
Do you think it's professional to have on your web site a picture of another trainer with a red line drawn through it?

That I think is kinda silly and childish, yes. Whether she even knows or approved it is another question.

Oh, please, Marcel.
I never took you for a gullible person.

Handsome Jack Morrison
Prouder than ever to not be a member of the "reality-based community"!

And another one bites the dust! Australian scientist changes his mind about "global warming": http://mises.org/story/2571
Yo! Melinda Shore! Read this article! She's talking about *you.* http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=510
Not really. The page has a list of trainers and ... to the dog trainers and experts listed below the comment.

That page you are referring to is not on Pat Miller's website, nor was the article described above written by her.

But a link to it was(!), a link with a big, bold red line across a picture of Millan.

Handsome Jack Morrison
Prouder than ever to not be a member of the "reality-based community"!

And another one bites the dust! Australian scientist changes his mind about "global warming": http://mises.org/story/2571
Yo! Melinda Shore! Read this article! She's talking about *you.* http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=510
Marcel,
I am so surprised by your comment that Pat Miller may not even know about the silly graphic that is on her web site.
That is absurd. She may not have put the web site up but if you were selling a product wouldn't you look over the finished announcement to make sure it represented you? Pleeze!
Be Free..Judy
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