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in rec.pets.dogs.behavior, Handsome Jack Morrison
If I was taking a class from Pat Miller (or ... did not do) that I did (or did not) like.

Why, pray tell, would I (i.e., as "any other trainer") have to accept your criticism???

If I am paying you to teach me to train my dog, and I have a comment(1) on how it is done, whether it is positive or negative, I would expect you to listen to it. Like I said in the part that you snipped out, you don't necessarily have to agree with what I am saying but I would expect you to take it seriously enough to listen to it.
(1) And by comment I meant serious comment. I have been paying attention in class, doing the required homework, etc.

Marcel Beaudoin and Moogli
Dream on!

What's your basis for saying this?

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
On 30 May 2007 18:17:31 GMT, Marcel Beaudoin
Why, pray tell, would I (i.e., as "any other trainer") have to accept your criticism???

If I am paying you to teach me to train my dog,

Then you would have no input whatsoever!
I'm going to tell you exactly how I'm going to train your dog, and I'm going to show you exactly how I'm going to do it.
Then, you have a decision to make.
and I have a comment(1) on how it is done,

You can comment all you like, but no, you can't tell me how it's going to be done, for crissakes.
It's not a democracy at my place, Marcel. It's a dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one.
We don't plan weddings; we train dogs.
whether it is positive or negative, I would expect you to listen to it.

No, you've got it backwards. You are going to do (almost all) of the listening, then you're going to make a decision.

Do you want me to train you dog? Yes or no.
If the answer is yes, we walk you and your dog to the kennel. If the answer is no, we walk you and your dog to your car and wave bye-bye.
Like I said in the part that you snipped out, you don't necessarily have to agree with what I am saying but I would expect you to take it seriously enough to listen to it.

I said that I had to put up with it (i.e., listen to it), but that I didn't have to accept it.
Surely you understand the difference?
Again, why would I ever "accept" criticism from someone who is supposedly at my place seeking help?
It just doesn't compute.

Handsome Jack Morrison
Prouder than ever to not be a member of the "reality-based community"!

And another one bites the dust! Australian scientist changes his mind about "global warming": http://mises.org/story/2571
Yo! Melinda Shore! Read this article! She's talking about *you.* http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=510
in rec.pets.dogs.behavior, Handsome Jack Morrison
If I am paying you to teach me to train my dog,

Then you would have no input whatsoever!

Umm, where did I say that I would tell you how to train my dog?? If I am paying someonw to train me, I will do whatever the hell they say, unless I think it is unsafe or I really didn't understand what they are asking me to do. In which case I will tell/ask them, and probably get a better explanation
and I have a comment(1) on how it is done,

You can comment all you like, but no, you can't tell me how it's going to be done, for crissakes. It's not a democracy at my place, Marcel. It's a dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one.

By comment, I meant something like "I would have liked some more explanation on why this is done this way." Most definately not "I would have preferred that you do it this way."
Like I said in the part that you snipped out, ... you to take it seriously enough to listen to it.

I said that I had to put up with it (i.e., listen to it), but that I didn't have to accept it. Surely you understand the difference?

I think that we are saying the same thing here. As a client, I expect to be told what I am going to do, when I am going to do it, and how I am going to do it. However, at the same time, if there is something about the classes that I didn't understand, I thought was rushed, didn't make sense to me, I would expect the trainer to listen to my criticism(or comments on things that I really liked, were very clear, worked wonderfully, etc) and try to help me figure out why I didn't understand it, etc.

Marcel Beaudoin and Moogli
On 30 May 2007 18:51:46 GMT, Marcel Beaudoin
Then you would have no input whatsoever!

Umm, where did I say that I would tell you how to train my dog??

What exactly is criticism then, if not an attempt to tell me that I'm doing something "wrong," etc???
If I am paying someonw to train me, I will do whatever the hell they say, unless I think it is unsafe or I really didn't understand what they are asking me to do.

That's something that wouldn't happen here, because we'd go over in great detail all those things before we started.

But after we had started, I expect you to do a lot more listening and doing, than talking. Except to ask questions, of course.
You can comment all you like, but no, you can't ... my place, Marcel. It's a dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one.

By comment, I meant something like "I would have liked some more explanation on why this is done this way." Most definately not "I would have preferred that you do it this way."

That's a huge distinction, Marcel, and it doesn't really jive with "criticism" at all.
But if I misunderstood you, I now stand corrected.
I said that I had to put up with it ... didn't have to accept it. Surely you understand the difference?

I think that we are saying the same thing here. As a client, I expect to be told what I am going to do, when I am going to do it, and how I am going to do it.

Absolutely!
And if I've done my job (and I do!), and have explained and showed you everything that is going to happen, before we even start, there's really no place for criticism during or after the sessions.
However, at the same time, if there is something about the classes that I didn't understand, I thought was rushed, ... liked, were very clear, worked wonderfully, etc) and try to help me figure out why I didn't understand it, etc.

I wasn't using a class setting in my example, Marcel.

I was using the example of someone entrusting his dog to me to be trained, as often happens with hunting and field-trial dogs.

E.g. if someone wanted me to train his dog for field-trialing, but didn't want me to use an e-collar, I would refuse to take his money.

We still teach some classes, but mostly classes on the e-collar, handling, and/or field-trialing.
People are encouraged to ask questions, to seek explanations, etc., but criticism per se would earn someone a quick walk back to his truck.
Because I've already taken great pains to explain everything that I'm/we're going to do beforehand.

Handsome Jack Morrison
Prouder than ever to not be a member of the "reality-based community"!

And another one bites the dust! Australian scientist changes his mind about "global warming": http://mises.org/story/2571
Yo! Melinda Shore! Read this article! She's talking about *you.* http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=510
in rec.pets.dogs.behavior, Handsome Jack Morrison
Umm, where did I say that I would tell you how to train my dog??

What exactly is criticism then, if not an attempt to tell me that I'm doing something "wrong," etc???

I have always understood/used criticism to tell where I didn't like something, in addition to telling where something was being done wrong. I should have been more clear in how I was using the term.

My apologies.
That's a huge distinction, Marcel, and it doesn't really jive with "criticism" at all. But if I misunderstood you, I now stand corrected.

I think it was mostly, in hindsight, me using a slightly non-standard use of criticise. Comment would probably have been a better word to use.

Marcel Beaudoin and Moogli
On 30 May 2007 19:23:49 GMT, Marcel Beaudoin
What exactly is criticism then, if not an attempt to tell me that I'm doing something "wrong," etc???

I have always understood/used criticism to tell where I didn't like something, in addition to telling where something was being done wrong.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.
But you can't tell me that I'm doing something "wrong," or that you don't like something, etc., if you're there to get help.

The act of being there asking for my help essentially disqualifies you from criticizing me, or telling me that I'm doing something "wrong."

How exactly would you know???
Especially after I've already explained and even demonstrated everything that I'm going to do, and why.
Instead, you should take that time to take a decision, not to criticize.
Anyway, that's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it!
I should have been more clear in how I was using the term. My apologies.

No apologies needed, Marcel!
We got off the track there, somehow.
That's a huge distinction, Marcel, and it doesn't really jive with "criticism" at all. But if I misunderstood you, I now stand corrected.

I think it was mostly, in hindsight, me using a slightly non-standard use of criticise. Comment would probably have been a better word to use.

I agree.
Comments and opinions are always welcome.
Criticism?
Not so much.

Handsome Jack Morrison
Prouder than ever to not be a member of the "reality-based community"!

And another one bites the dust! Australian scientist changes his mind about "global warming": http://mises.org/story/2571
Yo! Melinda Shore! Read this article! She's talking about *you.* http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=510
784288.07472930052...@news.individual.net:

"hot" words like "choking", "slamming", etc get used. I've read ... than hysterical? I think the emotion is essentially the same.

Well, I've certainly seen him use the equivalent language, if that's the determining factor for "bashing" "Bribe with food" "beg" are the same kind of loaded words, and he's comfortable using those.

He uses them to describe the ineffective behaviors of owners who are failing to control their dogs in large part because they have forgotten that they are supposed to be in control. He doesn't use them to describe positive-reinforcement trainers. In fact, buried in his book Cesar's Way (which is a fun read but badly organized from an information-presentation standpoint), he says that if you are starting with a puppy, or with an easy-going dog, positive training methods are definitely the way to go.
I'm not sure who "you all" is though, since I believe I'm the only one who used the word hysterical.

But you used it to describe his detractors..so it would be helpful to specify just who you meant. Otherwise, you're using the very same type of language you were accusing his detractors of using. Tricky thing, that.[/nq]Having recently acquired my first dog in years, I've spent a lot of time recently reading about trainers, training, and training methods, to bring myself back up to date with the intention of doing at least as well by my new dog as we did by the dogs of my childhood and young adulthood. Some otherwise very professional people, such as Nicholas Dodman for just one example, do use loaded, emotive language that caricatures rather than describes Cesar Millan.

In general, "positive" and "traditional" trainers have a strong tendency to use this kind of loaded language to describe each other's methods. The Monks get bashed, the clicker trainers get bashed, everyone gets bashed by people in other camps of dog-training philosophy, and a lot of it is quite startlingly personal. And Cesar Millan is an emotional lightning rod, getting bashed by everyone who doesn't worship the ground he walks on (the other extreme, and also quite ridiculous.) I think there are several reasons for this, not least of which is that Millan has an ego the size of the world, if not a tiny bit larger.

That's probably helpful and even necessary, given that he operates in Hollywood, where he'd get rolled over completely if he didn't have an ego the size of the world, but I also think it grates badly on people who put years into getting formally educated as animal behaviorists, labored in the figurative vinyards gaining experience and building reputation only to see this completely uneducated, self- taught guy from nowhere seemingly stroll into fame, fortune, and a national tv show virtually overnight.

How galling is that? Especially when they think his approach is wrong. Especially when some parts of it are potentially dangerous if applied incorrectly by inexperienced dog owners. (Millan from time to time gets bitten, doing what he does. He knows the risks he's running and accepts it as all in a day's work. Inexperienced dog owners don't necessarily understand the risks, and don't necessarily understand exactly when they're running those risks, when they try to imitate some of his dicier techniques, such as the alpha roll.)
And Millan himself stands out as the only one who never criticizes ANY other trainer or method of training. He only criticizes dog owners who have failed to effectively train their dogs by ANY method, who have let their dogs either walk all over them or become fearful, dependent puddles of goo who can't go anywhere or enjoy anything. He's got lots of faults, but he doesn't criticize other people who use different techniques that work , or believe that his methods are the only possible methods that can work.
Lis
And Millan himself stands out as the only one who never criticizes ANY other trainer or method of training. He ... use different techniques that work , or believe that his methods are the only possible methods that can work.

Bravo!
And nicely put.

Handsome Jack Morrison
Prouder than ever to not be a member of the "reality-based community"!

And another one bites the dust! Australian scientist changes his mind about "global warming": http://mises.org/story/2571
Yo! Melinda Shore! Read this article! She's talking about *you.* http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=510
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