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in thread "Lemony Fresh" (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
see, i don't get why breed plays into it at ... to ALL dogs that bite/attack/whatever, not just the media "darlings".

Hi Elegy (it's me, Jean, wearing a cloaking device!) I think the real problem is the damage the dogs tend ... This is just Jean Q. Public's impression, so I guess all things considered I'm not against the pitbull ban. LF

EXACTLY. I have for a long time searched for the words that you expressed. Elegy is passionate about Pits. It's obvious. And she continually ignores and distorts and uses facts to make her points. But statistics are used and abused and can be distorted and are ALL the time to prove anyone's point. I'm glad Elegy has such a passion.
unfortunately, there is still a visceral reaction to the damage done by pit bulls.
It's really odd when stats used to prove it's a misidentified breed because it's not that common a breed (because it's not recognized by the AKC.. or some such thing, apparently makes it RARE), and therefore it's misidentification of OTHER (even more rare breeds) this is doing all the damage.
And then they turn around and use the stats that this is such a common breed, and there are so MANY of them, that if they REALLY were THAT bad... the whole nation would be eaten. Therefore.. they aren't bad at all. Well, which way is it. Are they uncommon? (they are around HERE) or are they everywhere. Little doubt they are everywhere except around here.

It's the DAMAGE they do WHEN they do it, that is just soo unacceptable. I'm in favor of the Pit Bull Ban, simply because there are so many other breed that HAVE the wonderful temperaments that well bred/responsibly owned pits have. It's not like it's the only breed that has the wonderful traits. Why should the rest of us live with this terrible trip trigger because the Pit owners can't control the idjits that also share the breed fancy. If the Pit owners can't..then banning the breed is in the rest of societies best interest.
I think the real problem is the damage the dogs tend to do, not the frequency of bites. It's the ... low. Poodles probably bite more than pits (I guess it'd be more) but they don't rip off the bitee's faces.

i know someone who literally had half her face ripped off by a Chow. funnily enough, it's Goldens she's wary of, though. their typical "typewriter style" bites cause a lot of damage. she said she'd rather get bitten by a Pit Bull any day.
Add that to the fact that pitbulls so often end up paired with idjits..and you just can't legislate idiocy out of existence.

any dog with teeth is potentially dangerous. unless someone can think up a reasonable way to ensure that idiots cannot have access to dogs, idiots will continue to own dangerous dogs. and, they'll do so long after every community on Urth has banned Pit Bulls out of existence.
I realize that responsible dog owners like you are likely the majority but when you have an animal that's very dangerous given the right conditions you have two choices

Pit Bulls are not at all unique in that respect. any dog has the potential to be "very dangerous."
- eliminate those conditions (very, very difficult) or eliminate the animal (fairly simple).

simple and utterly ineffectual.
So far as the 'media darlings' thing, I am not sure if all dog attacks other than pitbull attacks get ignored,

they are ignored. that, and they're frequently
misattributed to Pit Bulls.
I'd have no way of knowing that, but it just seems that when a pit does attack another dog or child or even adult, the damage done is pretty spectacular compared to the damage done by the family poodle.

certain people tend to keep dogs in environments that foster human aggression. i think the breed is irrelevant. if it weren't Pit Bulls, it'd be Rottweilers, Dobes, German Shepherds, Boxers, or just about anything. well, except for Poodles. they can be pretty damned nasty when not well bred and socialized, but they're so foofy looking that they aren't likely to ever be the breed of choice for the sorts of clueless asswagons i'm referring to.
This is just Jean Q. Public's impression, so I guess all things considered I'm not against the pitbull ban.

i dunno what breed/mix your dog is, but eventually, if people do not work to oppose BSL, your dog will be banned, too.

shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com / (updated dailyish, apparently)
I think the real problem is the damage the dogs ... be more) but they don't rip off the bitee's faces.

i know someone who literally had half her face ripped off by a Chow. funnily enough, it's Goldens she's wary of, though. their typical "typewriter style" bites cause a lot of damage. she said she'd rather get bitten by a Pit Bull any day.

Is she a masochist? As an aside, my sister's daughter was bitten by their family Golden and IIRC they are at the top of the biting list (but that's because there are so many of them).

Pitbulls have incredibly powerful jaws and a very high prey drive - you can't deny the existence of different temperaments and destructive capabilities among the huge range of breeds within the species. It's the river in Egypt tact and it just doesn't hold water, imo.

I just don't believe this - savage dog attacks no matter what the breed are the kind of story that the media loves, particularly when it's a child attacked or a toy breed attacked and killed. There is no vast pitbull conspiracy.
I'd have no way of knowing that, but it just ... spectacular compared to the damage done by the family poodle.

certain people tend to keep dogs in environments that foster human aggression. i think the breed is irrelevant. if it ... that they aren't likely to ever be the breed of choice for the sorts of clueless asswagons i'm referring to.

Yes, I agree with you here - I predict dobermans will be the next breed of choice for idiots (and I'll qualify that by saying, obviously, not exclusively) in Ontario. I read recently someone suggesting that only dogs under 20lbs be permitted in urban areas - can you imagine? He got support for the idea from the doghating contingent, I can't see that happening though.
This is just Jean Q. Public's impression, so I guess all things considered I'm not against the pitbull ban.

i dunno what breed/mix your dog is, but eventually, if people do not work to oppose BSL, your dog will be banned, too.

Nope, hyperbole - my dog is a foxy looking eskie, people cross the street to meet her - ironically, I have to tell them to stay away because she's just not into strangers. The breeds you mentioned above - Doberman's, Rottweillers, Shepherds (boxers I don't see as having a bad rep, doesn't everyone love a boxer?) are vulnerable, though. I guess we'll see how this goes.

LF
Hi Elegy (it's me, Jean, wearing a cloaking device!)

lemony fresh eh? bwahaha.

hah, I know. I have no idea why it occurred to me to use that nick!
I think the real problem is the damage the dogs ... with idjits..and you just can't legislate idiocy out of existence.

but any of the large breeds can have a strong bite. and besides, given that most dog bite victims are ... legislate the dogs out of existence. or punish the responsible owners who just happen to like this breed of dog.

I agree that the pit bull ban is unfair to responsible owners. I look at it as a lesser of two evils thing I guess - seeing as how it's so difficult to legislate owner interaction with their animals - and if banning the pit would prevent human tragedies then that outweighs the other side - which I know is more just - of holding the owners responsible. It's just mechanically impossible, imo.
I realize that responsible dog owners like you are likely ... to bring new pits into the population. No doggie holocaust.

unless you're a pit bull in the shelter. or a pit bull now dumped in the shelter because your owners ... or a pit bull who lives next to hysterical owners who call animal control and accuse you of being menacing.

Yep, that's collateral damage I hadn't really considered in my initial response - BUT I'm thinking that if pitbulls are getting dumped into shelters then they are getting dumped there by their irresponsible owners and therefore...
Listen, if I lived next door to a pitbull that I sensed was being menacing in any way, I'd probably call animal control too. It's not because of any evil intent on my part - I perceive them as being very dangerous if they aren't properly socialized - and I think I'm right about that.
you're not going to get rid of irresponsible owners by outlawing pit bulls. they will either a) ignore the laws ... puts the onus on the owner to prove that their dog is not a pit bull. how is that fair?

yes, or pit bull mixes, how much pit bull is too much? However, I think pit bulls have very recognizable features, (very distinctive eyes) that anyone knowledgeable would be able to tell a boxer/lab cross apart from a pitbull. I'd hope so.
why not just enforce already existing leash laws for crying out loud?? that's half the problem right there.

So far as the 'media darlings' thing, I am not ... guess all things considered I'm not against the pitbull ban.

here's a good site (and good book) that talks about the real statistics behind fatal dog attacks here's the bite stats for just winnipeg, who outlawed pit bulls in 1990

Thanks for the sites. Someone posted a link to a pit bull flash site recently here that was very sad, had images of some horribly abused pits on it and then images of happy pits snuggling up with children.
10 years ago it was dobermans in this seat. before them, rottweilers i believe.

Shepherds had to live down the whole Nazi association, too.

Anyway, I love it when you post pics of luce and mushroom, your dogs don't look scary to me in the least. Particularly when they have bunny ears on or they're sadly doing a "stay".
LF
yes, or pit bull mixes, how much pit bull is too much? However, I think pit bulls have very recognizable features, (very distinctive eyes) that anyone knowledgeable would be able to tell a boxer/lab cross apart from a pitbull. I'd hope so.

really? try this site:
http://members.aol.com/radogz/find.html
tell us how well you do.

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
photos
yes, or pit bull mixes, how much pit bull is ... a boxer/lab cross apart from a pitbull. I'd hope so.

really? try this site: http://members.aol.com/radogz/find.html tell us how well you do.

here's another one:
http://www.mnp13.com/FindThePitBull/FindThePitBull.aspx

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
photos
really? try this site: http://members.aol.com/radogz/find.html tell us how well you do.

here's another one: http://www.mnp13.com/FindThePitBull/FindThePitBull.aspx

and another Emotion: smile
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

my best friend is a pit bull.
http://shattering.org
x-no-archive: yes in headers
Is she a masochist?

no. she's worked in animal control for umpty years.
Pitbulls have incredibly powerful jaws

there's no reliable way to measure bite strength, and there's no reason to think that a Pit Bull's bite is any more powerful than that of any other dog of similar size.
and a very high prey drive -

high prey drive is not unique to Pit Bulls.
you can't deny the existence of different temperaments and destructive capabilities among the huge range of breeds within the species. It's the river in Egypt tact and it just doesn't hold water, imo.

there are obviously physical and temperamental differences between breeds (otherwise, we'd have a Unibreed). however, you're carrying the argument into the "Pit Bulls Have SuperCanine Powers" realm.
I just don't believe this - savage dog attacks no matter what the breed are the kind of story that the media loves, particularly when it's a child attacked or a toy breed attacked and killed. There is no vast pitbull conspiracy.

who said anything about a conspiracy? that dog attacks are frequently misattributed to Pit Bulls is a matter of record.

just for fun:
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

http://members.aol.com/radogz/find.html
http://www.mnp13.com/FindThePitBull/FindThePitBull.aspx

and, that dog attacks by non-sensational breeds go ignored is nothing new.
Yes, I agree with you here - I predict dobermans will be the next breed of choice for idiots (and I'll qualify that by saying, obviously, not exclusively) in Ontario.

and around and around it goes.
I read recently someone suggesting that only dogs under 20lbs be permitted in urban areas - can you imagine? He got support for the idea from the doghating contingent, I can't see that happening though.

that wouldn't have saved the child who was killed by a Pom.
Nope, hyperbole - my dog is a foxy looking eskie,

no, it's not hyperbole. Siberian Huskys and Alaskan Malemutes are restricted under some local laws. Eskies could well end up in a similar situation.
people cross the street to meet her -

what has that got to do with BSL?
ironically, I have to tell them to stay away because she's just not into strangers.

then she's potentially more dangerous to humans than my Pit Bull x.
The breeds you mentioned above - Doberman's, Rottweillers, Shepherds (boxers I don't see as having a bad rep, doesn't everyone love a boxer?) are vulnerable, though. I guess we'll see how this goes.

no, not everyone loves a Boxer. they are frequently mistaken for Pit Bulls. (strangers' reactions to my dogs is, um, interesting.) Boxers are also increasingly targeted by BSL.

shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com / (updated dailyish, apparently)
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