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he sure is cute. those eyes and ears, though (now that i've seen a front view), really resemble something Bostonish.

I took him to a Kathy Keats seminar last weekend. A number of people described him as "Just plain ugly, except for the ears." Do you think I should pass those comments on to the owners?

Boy, some people have a very strange definition of "ugly". He's adorable!

Debbie the Dogged das at spamcop dot net
"Poodles are space aliens who think they've disguised themselves as dogs." - Paghat the Ratgirl
Question for you about border collies and trials. I always thought the purpose of breeding border collies was to produce working stockdogs.

Yup.
On a particular email list, there is a working bordercollie person that

Curious, who?
gives the impression that the whole purpose of breeding and training border collies is to be able to trial. Now, I understand that trialing helps show which dogs can work strange stock in strange locations, but I didn't think it was the be all and end for border collies, correct?

Well no, of course not. Trials are one tool used to select better working dogs and good working Border Collies are bred by people who know more about their dogs than just what they'll do in a trial. There are a lot of hobbyists like me who only trial our dogs, but I don't think people like me should be breeding. People who are only interested in trialing remind me of the "dog fancy" types who are only interested in "putting titles" on their dogs in order to have breeding credentials, rather than because they are actually interested in what their dogs are made of and what they can do.
Trials give you a more consistent barometer of what a dog can do (rather than "he's a damn good farm dog" which could mean anything from "he can gather a hundred-acre field by himself" to "he brings the two pet cows in from the back yard once a day") and in a lot of ways they are harder than most farm work, but there are also tough farm situations that aren't replicated in trials. But they do give you a good idea of how dogs work on unfamiliar stock in unfamiliar places, as you said, and also show you the dog's working style. Most people actually, everyone I know who breeds good dogs doesn't choose breeding animals purely on the basis of what they do at a trial.

Melanie Lee Chang > Form ever follows function. Departments of Anthropology and Biology >
University of Pennsylvania > Louis Sullivan (Email Removed) >
: I know of a few breeders who do field coursing and a couple who do : live coursing with their dogs, but they're in the minority. Do the conformation dogs retain the same chasing/hunting instinct as performance-bred sighthounds?

They do, though I'm sure that the degree to which they do depends on lines. The instinct is definitely reinforced by training in racing dogs, of course. Even sighthounds that don't have much prey drive still have the chase instinct. They just don't seem to know what to do when they catch up to the prey.
Long story short, the kennel club appearance standards supposedly describe Old Hemp, who was black and white, rough coated, with Irish markings. He'd be perfectly recognizable as a working Border Collie today, but would probably get laughed out of the show ring. [/nq]
I think I've seen that picture before, and you're right - - even I recognize him as a Border Collie. Getting laughed out of the show ring isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Mustang Sally
This was the only online reference that I could find to it. "The baby's uncle left the infant and the ... a similar incident involving a Dachshund. I remember this one because it is local to me. http://www.westwinddogtraining.com/Articles Etc/Washington Post/washington post.html

Nothing personal against you here, because it's obvious that the media f'd up this Pom incident royally, along with the Doxy situation.

But it's ludicrous and, IMO, plainly stupid to compare these small-dog incidents with the many situations of PBs, Canae Corsos (sp?) and other large dogs that take down adults, teens, and small children. The damage required to mortally injure a defenseless infant (6-weeks in the doxy case) is significantly less than required to mortally injure an adult, teen etc. An 8-12 pound infant is no match for a 16-32 pound, mature Doxy in an aggressive mood.
It is canine nastiness, overshadowed by owner ignorance, abdication of responsibility, and human stupidity that allowed these infant killings. Unfortunately, the owners often cannot be prosecuted.

So it's not the dog, it is the owner. But if society cannot control the actions of human caretakers of dogs, they sure can take care of the dogs directly. That's why we have BSL.
As an aside: every time I read "BSL", I see "*** Law". In Ontario this is certainly the case: MPP Michael Bryant and his crew dissed every public outcry against BSL, and now it is too late in Ontario for PBs.
For other breeds to escape this fate in Ontario, and for all breeds in other jurisdictions, I think that the breed interest groups, kennel clubs and allies need to take their PR projects into high gear. Now. To say 'Petey was a Pit Bull' is just a wank in the wind. Nobody cares and it draws no emotion. Besides, he was just a character actor. It has no relevance to the case of the 14 yo girl in Illinois that was attacked by 3 PBs and a fourth mixed breed. And it isn't going to swing public opinion.
To capture the mind share of the public and the politicians, dog defenders need to demonstrably and repeatedly prove that their breed (PBs or others threatened by BSL) is NOT the horrorshow that they have been made out to be. Demonstrably. Repeatedly. Meaningfully. And drawing on the emotions of the public to realize what most of the people here know: good, responsible owners maintain good canine companions. Therefore, bad canine consequences are a result of bad people. Bad people need to be dealt with, not the dogs.

A tall order, but not impossible.
(Thanks for giving me a place to jump in and vent.)

+ TomH + antonomasia-at-canada-dot-com
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Also: http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/gey chr0.htm
[/nq]
I think I've seen that picture before, and you're right - - even I recognize him as a Border Collie. Getting laughed out of the show ring isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Mustang Sally
Hahaha! Soo so true!
Beth, with her beautiful, non-breedring shepherds
Yup.
On a particular email list, there is a working bordercollie person that
Curious, who?
Rather not say on a public forum.
gives the impression that the whole purpose of breeding and training border collies is to be able to trial. Now, I understand that trialing
helps show which dogs can work strange stock in strange locations, but
I didn't think it was the be all and end for border collies, correct
?
Well no, of course not. Trials are one tool used to select better working dogs and good working Border Collies are bred by people who know
more about their dogs than just what they'll do in a trial. There are a
lot of hobbyists like me who only trial our dogs, but I don't think people like me should be breeding. People who are only interested in trialing remind me of the "dog fancy" types who are only interested in "putting titles" on their dogs in order to have breeding credentials, rather than because they are actually interested in what their dogs are

made of and what they can do.
That was how I thought too. This person has a working farm and maybe it just how he posts to this one list that makes it sound like all of his training is to go to trials and try and win money. When the discussion turned to HGH his big comment was, "What is the prize money." I'm sure he was just being a smarta**, but still. The breeder who produced my boys is very much aware of what her dogs can do and her breeding goals. She used to do schutzhund, but physical problems stopped that. Hers, not the dogs. Howerever, Trip's litter brother is now being used a stud for Guide dogs for the Blind in CA. (Big brag by association.)
Beth
Any typos I'm blaming on having my pet rat running around on my arms and shoulders while I type this.
That was how I thought too. This person has a working farm and maybe it just how he posts to this one list that makes it sound like all of his training is to go to trials and try and win money. When the discussion turned to HGH his big comment was, "What is the prize money." I'm sure he was just being a smarta**, but still.

That's totally bizarre. Main reason is that prize money at sheepdog trials is generally bupkiss. Very few trials have large purses and the ones that do are sort of showcases designed specifically to pull lots of spectators (i.e., Soldier Hollow). They are very much the exception. At most trials you have the sheepdog handlers, their dogs, and maybe a couple of intrepid spectators. If you win Open you might cover the gas your RV consumed on the way to the trial.
One memorable day I won $40, a crook, a painted plate, a painted mug, and a bag of dog food, which is a lot of prizes for someone who is not used to getting anything or only ribbons (like in agility) but no one makes a living off this sort of stuff.
Is this a cattle trial person? Cattle trials can be very different from sheepdog trials (not always, but they can be) and the culture is a little bit different. They are often arena trials held in conjunction with some sort of fair or event, and a lot of them seem to be modeled after cutting horse/Quarter Horse competitions with prize money and fanfare.

The breeder who produced my boys is very much aware of what her dogs can do and her breeding goals. She used to do schutzhund, but physical problems stopped that. Hers, not the dogs. Howerever, Trip's litter brother is now being used a stud for Guide dogs for the Blind in CA. (Big brag by association.)
Yay!

Melanie Lee Chang > Form ever follows function. Departments of Anthropology and Biology >
University of Pennsylvania > Louis Sullivan (Email Removed) >
Piggybacking on you, Sally, since I didn't see the original..
Long story short, the kennel club appearance standards supposedly describe ... would probably get laughed out of the show ring. [/nq]
Actually, that type of dog wins a lot in the midwest. In that picture, he is stacked incorrectly, but he'd win.
http://www.onofrio.com/execpgm/wbsrfmbd?wtshky=LAND132319 Some results of a big show in my area with the exception of the Bayshore dogs, several of them come from working farms. (Notice there are a couple HC in there, and I know for a fact that their owner/breeder uses her dogs every day on a real farm.)

-Abby
www.cafepress.com/pugpem
www.cafepress.com/caerpugs
Pems, Aussie, and a Pug
*Remove shoes to reply*
: That was how I thought too. This person has a working farm and maybe : it just how he ... intrepid spectators. If you win Open you might cover the gas your RV consumed on the way to the trial.

It could be like dog shows. No money for showing, but big time bucks to be made training, buying, selling, and breeding.
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