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It could be like dog shows. No money for showing, but big time bucks to be made training, buying, selling, and breeding.
Yeah, but not really. The market just isn't big enough, frankly. There are some people who make their living through the sheepdogs, facilitated by trial wins, but only a few. My impression is it's a lot easier to make a living as an agility guru than a sheepdog guru there are way more people out there constituting your potential clientele, and they tend to have more disposable income.

Melanie Lee Chang > Form ever follows function. Departments of Anthropology and Biology >
University of Pennsylvania > Louis Sullivan (Email Removed) >
Actually, that type of dog wins a lot in the midwest. In that picture, he is stacked incorrectly, but he'd win.
Type of dog? He isn't stacked at all, so he can't be "stacked incorrectly" he's just standing there. That photo is probably one hundred years old.
http://www.onofrio.com/execpgm/wbsrfmbd?wtshky=LAND132319 Some results of a big show in my area with the exception of the Bayshore dogs, several of them come from working farms.
I don't see any dogs on that list that come from sheepdog people. There are a number from "versatility" and sport breeders. They were all selected for "type," even if they aren't all Barbies. Some of them come from the same dogs as the ones I like, and the ones who are closer to that heritage are probably the one I'd like better, but they're all from breeders who think they are "refining" the breed by selecting for "Beauty and Brains! (TM)" I don't consider what they're doing an improvement, even though I think they have good intentions. I also think as time goes on, "type" is going to have to make more and more of their breeding decisions for them for their dogs to remain competitive in the breed ring.
It's the nature of the beast conformation showing celebrates the Platonic ideal, and therefore creates homogeneity. Too much variation in the dogs that win indicates that judges are being too individualistic and not doing their job correctly, if you really think about it. For the game to be fair, for the "best" dog (in terms of who fits the standard most closely) to win, everyone should be judging the same way. The same dogs should win every time.

Thus far, the Barbie Collies are the ones that win and I don't see that changing, since they're just plain better at being show dogs than the working dogs are. The breed is still relatively new in the show ring so there's more variation than there will be in the future (so much variation that dogs of, essentially, two different breeds can both win). I don't think it'll stay that way.

(By the way, there's a *** out your way with a couple of offspring who were at that show, she's an HX. She's bred very similarly to Solo. Interestingly enough, the one pup of hers that I know in person has exactly the same behavioral problems, despite having been raised in a loving and knowledgeable sports home, unlike Solo.)

(Notice there are a couple HC in there,
and I know for a fact that their owner/breeder uses her dogs every day on a real farm.)
Better that than nothing I guess, but it's kind of like comparing a 4H winner to a dog that would be competitive at Westminster. The 4H winner might kick ***, but you can't tell with the data at hand. I know that sounds snotty and I wish it didn't, and I apologize because I know it's going to *** people off, but I don't really know what else to say.
At the trial I ran Solo in last fall, he was competing in Novice-Novice against a heck of a lot of AKC dogs who had multiple AKC herding titles. Solo is no trial dog, but the reason I decided to run him is that the other dogs looked so bad, I knew that no matter how awful Solo was he'd fit right in. And indeed, he had a better run than at least half of them and we retired. At least he went and got the sheep. It is apparently possible to have advanced AKC herding titles and not be able to get around a Novice-Novice sheepdog trial course with a truncated outrun (this one was less than 50 yards).

For Border Collies, who should be able to do a Novice-Novice course essentially with no training, this is really sad. (Yup, I just called Solo "sad" but like I said, he's no trial dog and no one in her right mind would breed him, even if he were temperamentally normal.)
I like to hear that people actually use their Border Collies on their farms and ranches. It's what the breed was meant to do. But "he works every day" can mean a whole lot of different things. And the concept of the "backyard champion" applies here too. Without knowing more about the dog than "he works on the ranch at home," there isn't a whole lot anyone can say about him. Some people need their dogs to do really difficult stuff. Some people only need dogs that will hold off a feeder and gather a small field once in a while.I'm not saying there aren't awesome AKC dogs out there who are AKC herding champions as well as working ranch dogs, I know that there are. But conversely being an AKC herding champion and working ranch dog isn't a guarantee of quality for this breed either. By these standards, the great dogs are better (in the context of THIS breed) than they need to be. I think that the AKC herding program is great for many other herding breeds, that it suits them better, but that it is a very inadequate test for working Border Collies.

It's nice that there are people who enjoy it and enjoy their dogs, but making up a new game with different standards isn't the same as judging the dogs by the higher standards, even if you call the new game by the same name. And it changes the dogs.

If you never really test your dogs, you don't know what you have. And if you don't know what you have, you cannot select for better dogs. If physical "type" is more important to a breeder than working "type" then I guess this is an acceptable situation to be in. If you think the dogs are defined by the work they do, it's a crisis.

Melanie Lee Chang > Form ever follows function. Departments of Anthropology and Biology >
University of Pennsylvania > Louis Sullivan (Email Removed) >
: It could be like dog shows. No money for showing, but big time bucks to : be made training, ... there are way more people out there constituting your potential clientele, and they tend to have more disposable income.[/nq]Hmmm. There are a lot more people in this area selling started stock dogs, or BCs from supposed working stock, than there are selling agility prospects. There are a good number of places here where you can go to train a stock dog too. The huge numbers of dogs being registered with the working BC club tells you there's money changing hands. And 100% of the people in my area that I know getting dogs for agility are getting them from stockdog breeders or at least people who say they are.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but trust me, there's money there. I bet a LOAD more working BC people breed their dogs than agility people. I'd venture a guess, off the top of my head, that a huge majority of agility dogs are spayed/neutered. Probably somewhere in the 80% range of the dogs I know.
Hmmm. There are a lot more people in this area selling started stock dogs, or BCs from supposed working stock, than there are selling agility prospects.
I'd imagine there's regional variation. I'd be surprised if there are that many people for whom stock dogs and stock dog training make up the major source of their income. There are people who breed too many dogs and sell them for profit but they're not the people I'm talking about. We were originally talking about people who succeed at trialing and leverage that success into a livelihood raising, training, and selling stock dogs, not borderline or outright puppy millers selling "supposed" working stock. So, according to the original terms of the discussion, it still seems to me that there are relatively few people out there who have been able to parlay a living out of sheepdogs by being a Big Hat.

I live in an area with high population density and a lot of disposable income. It is easy for people in this area (metropolitan east coast) to buy their way into the trial scene by paying for a good dog and good training (which is basically what I did, but in a slower and much more painful way and not as successfully). There are still very few people who actually make their entire living by being Big Hats. My own trainer has a lot of students he's personable and is also willing to each AKC breeds for AKC trials, which there's a big market for around here. He teaches lessons pretty much every day and still has a day job. Keeping sheep costs money around here rather than making money.

There are a good number of places here where you can go to train a stock dog too. The huge numbers of dogs being registered with the working BC club
? You mean your local club? Registering dogs?
tells you there's money changing hands. And 100% of the people in my area that I know getting dogs for agility are getting them from stockdog breeders or at least people who say they are.

Well, there's a big difference from people who are really breeding good dogs and people who are just putting dogs from "working lines" together. I don't blame the sins of the latter on the former any more than I blame conformation breeders for what puppy millers with AKC registered dogs do. Part of the problem is that outside of the working Border Collie world it seems like anything that isn't bred for the show ring is said to be from "working lines" no matter how undistinguished the breeding, sort of the way any puppy mill Lab is said to look "fieldy."

I'm
not saying you're wrong, but trust me, there's money there. I bet a LOAD more working BC people breed their dogs than agility people.

If by "working BC people" you mean people who are conscientious about producing good working dogs, I certainly hope so!
I'd venture
a guess, off the top of my head, that a huge majority of agility dogs are spayed/neutered. Probably somewhere in the 80% range of the dogs I know.

Most of the dogs you see running at a sheepdog trial will never be bred, even if they are intact. I can't venture on figures, but a great number of them are speutered as well. It isn't like conformation showing, where speutered dogs aren't allowed.

Melanie Lee Chang > Form ever follows function. Departments of Anthropology and Biology >
University of Pennsylvania > Louis Sullivan (Email Removed) >
Melinda, do your dogs talk?

And then some. I just took them all down to the boarding kennel (I'm off to Minnesota tomorrow) and I suspect during the process of loading them all in the Behemoth I sustained ear damage.

So the vocal thing is a Sibe trait? My...I don't know what to call her...2nd mom, I guess...has a wolf/northern breed (Mal or Sibe?) rescue that looks like Tasha (a little more narrow, but same coloring and all) that talks. I think it's hysterical, especially when she is told to do something and starts "talking back" like she is arguing. I thought it was a wolf characteristic..but then again, I'm not a wolf or northern breed "person."

Mali
And then some. I just took them all down to ... loading them all in the Behemoth I sustained ear damage.

So the vocal thing is a Sibe trait? My...I don't know what to call her...2nd mom, I guess...has a wolf/northern ... she is arguing. I thought it was a wolf characteristic..but then again, I'm not a wolf or northern breed "person."

Yes, it's a Sibe trait. Tasha roos insolently at us when she wants something, and Mukluk will carry on an entire conversation. Neither one barks, but they are very vocal.
Mustang Sally
Staffy's and Pit Bulls are only semantics.

The Staffy is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, which is indeed a very different breed.
Aimee
http://www.odnarb.com

People confuse dog breeds all the time.

It's true! And to make it even more thread relevant, my coworker with Boxers is ALWAYS having people freak out over her "pit bulls," while everybody loves my "boxers," despite them being pit bulls. Heck, even my new neighbor calls Grant the "cute Boxer next door," and he HAS a pit bull! Twice I've had people talk about a scary pit bull (one was a Boston, one was my oversized Pug) right in front of me with Brando, WHILE they were petting my JRT (in the Boston incident) or Boxer (while standing next to the EVIL Pit Pug).
My Malinois has been correctly IDed (by JQP, dog shows don't count) in one way or another THREE times!!! One lady actually called him a Malinois at a pet boutique, I was impressed.
Once I was walking him downtown along with Grant, and a lady came up and asked if my dog was a Tuh-ROO-vin. I looked at my dogs for a moment, and tried to think of what a Tuh-ROO-vin was and which one looked more like one. I finally figured out that she meant Tervuren, and happily put it in the "IDed" category cuz she was close enough.

Just last night at Petco a guy told me that I had a beautiful Belgian Shepherd Dog. Score! Then there is the ex-K9 guy up the street, who own his retired dog. I figured HE might be able to appreciate my beast. He asked if Harry was a Dingo :/
Aimee
http://www.odnarb.com
I was referring to the picture in the fourth row, as I lookclosely at it now I can see that it's just a long piece of grass or branch inthe background. LF

I've gotten that comment more than once, I should have that photoshopped out. LMAO
Aimee
http://www.odnarb.com
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