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Well, I've never had a hand-shy dog, and I've been correcting retriever pups in ways very similar to yours for many years.

I've seen many hand-shy herding breed dogs.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Nor is it mine, as I've already written.

I thought that the cry of pain followed by redirection was your preference. I must have misread.

Nope, I prefer a quick timeout followed by redirection to something appropriate for chewing.
Anyway, for the majority of dogs I work with, I won't grab their snout when other methods work just as well (your definition of "correction" is different from mine). And, while I'm certainly not against correcting a dog, a mouthy puppy is not, IMO, the proper target for correction.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Well, I've never had a hand-shy dog, and I've been correcting retriever pups in ways very similar to yours for many years.

I've seen many hand-shy herding breed dogs.

Is there a reason to suspect that the owners/trainers of herding breeds are using corrections more than the owners/trainers of, say, the retriever breeds?
I Don't Think So.
Shelties, for example, as a breed, are notoriously hand-shy.

Is there any reason to suspect that Sheltie owners are correcting their dogs more than retriever owners?
I've seen a few hand-shy retrievers. And their parents (different owners) were usually hand-shy, too.

Handsome Jack Morrison
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I've seen many hand-shy herding breed dogs.

Is there a reason to suspect that the owners/trainers of herding breeds are using corrections more than the owners/trainers of, say, the retriever breeds?

Nope.
I Don't Think So.

Heh, and I didn't even read ahead.
Shelties, for example, as a breed, are notoriously hand-shy.

Yes.
Is there any reason to suspect that Sheltie owners are correcting their dogs more than retriever owners?

No.
I've seen a few hand-shy retrievers. And their parents (different owners) were usually hand-shy, too.

It's interesting that you see a possible inherited basis for hand-shyness - I agree, which is why I don't use the hand corrections recommend by Janet P. For example, I doubt that Friday was ever abused, yet he sometimes shrinks from a quickly raised hand.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
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which is why I don't use the hand corrections recommend by Janet P. For example, I doubt that Friday was ever abused, yet he sometimes shrinks from a quickly raised hand.

That's why you shouldn't "quickly" raise your hand to a dog.

But a slow, gentle correction with your hand should be no big deal, even for a pup with an inherited submissiveness (IMO&E, hand-shyness is usually an artifact of this general submissiveness).

Handsome Jack Morrison
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which is why I don't use the hand corrections recommend ... abused, yet he sometimes shrinks from a quickly raised hand.

That's why you shouldn't "quickly" raise your hand to a dog.

Of course not I didn't mean to imply I was raising a hand to* my dogs but sometimes *** happens and a hand gets quickly raised *near a dog. I hate it when Friday flinches.
But a slow, gentle correction with your hand should be no big deal, even for a pup with an inherited submissiveness (IMO&E, hand-shyness is usually an artifact of this general submissiveness).

While I agree with your generalisation, I'll stick with the toy/tug redirection for pups, since it seems to work for me and mine and those I take care of.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
That's why you shouldn't "quickly" raise your hand to a dog.

Of course not I didn't mean to imply I was raising a hand to* my dogs but sometimes *** happens and a hand gets quickly raised *near a dog. I hate it when Friday flinches.

Just to set the record straight, I* would never imply that you've ever raised a hand *to any of your dogs either.
But a slow, gentle correction with your hand should be ... (IMO&E, hand-shyness is usually an artifact of this general submissiveness).

While I agree with your generalisation, I'll stick with the toy/tug redirection for pups, since it seems to work for me and mine and those I take care of.

Yep.
Different strokes for different folks.
If it ain't broke...

Handsome Jack Morrison
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Handsome Jack Morrison said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Shelties, for example, as a breed, are notoriously hand-shy.

Yes.

Not that it has anything to do with the matter at hand other than perhaps the type of training method one ought to choose if one has a Sheltie but frankly, it's been my impression that most Shelties are unbearably unstable in almost every way: excessive barking, excessive shyness, etc. (Sorry, Sheltie-lovers!) I talked to a breeder/exhibitor at a show once and she said that temperament problems are rampant in the breed and that people needed to work hard to improve the situation.

Well, in that case I wouldn't use that method with him either. (But since he's not a puppy and presumably not prone to puppyish biting, I'd think it's a non-issue for you.)
I've taken care to discourage mouthiness in my dogs (GSDs and Goldens): no play-biting, no tug-of-war, etc. Our new rescue girl has a bad habit of resorting to biting occasionally when playing fetch, although she doesn't do it when you take an object away from her, thank goodness. (She also wants to play tug or war, which is obviously a no-no for a retriever.) Since she only does it when very excited, so far I've ignored it. It's probably within most people's idea of the range of acceptable behavior, but not mine. It's about on the same level of occasional jumping up that many people tolerate: it doesn't seem like a big deal until the dog jumps on the wrong person or ruins a shirt you like.
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