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which is why I don't use the hand corrections recommend ... abused, yet he sometimes shrinks from a quickly raised hand.

That's why you shouldn't "quickly" raise your hand to a dog. But a slow, gentle correction with your hand should be no big deal, even for a pup with an inherited submissiveness (IMO&E, hand-shyness is usually an artifact of this general submissiveness).

And I should add that that's the way I do it!
Not that it has anything to do with the matter at hand other than perhaps the type of training method one ... said that temperament problems are rampant in the breed and that people needed to work hard to improve the situation.

Perhaps, but if so I've been extremely lucky. Cassie has, I will admit, become more of a barker in her old age. I think it's because she's going deaf and isn't sure what is going on. But in her heyday, she never barked in the house except during thunderstorms. And while she may be "shy" she will quickly warm up to almost anyone offering her a treat. And she has never engaged in fear biting or nipping of any kind.
Bizby
in thread "bizby40" (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
Not that it has anything to do with the matter ... that people needed to work hard to improve the situation.

Perhaps, but if so I've been extremely lucky. Cassie has, I will admit, become more of a barker in her ... almost anyone offering her a treat. And she has never engaged in fear biting or nipping of any kind. Bizby

Often deaf going dogs tend to bark more. I know Senja did.
Not that it has anything to do with the matter at hand other than perhaps the type of training method one ... but frankly, it's been my impression that most Shelties are unbearablyunstable in almost every way: excessive barking, excessive shyness, etc.

I'll give you barking (and it isn't considered excessive, simply a breed trait.)
However, shyness is neither correct for the breed nor common in WELL BRED Shelties. That capitalization is because unfortunately the majority of Shelties are not well bred. However, even poorly bred Shelties can be remarkably good natured. Of course, a poor temperament can leave more of an impression than a dozen good ones, but I've met hundreds and hundreds of Shelties, some responsibly bred and socialized, many poorly bred and most of them in rescue. I can count on one hand the number of unstable dogs that I've met.
(Sorry,
Sheltie-lovers!) I talked to a breeder/exhibitor at a show once and shesaid that temperament problems are rampant in the breed and that people neededto work hard to improve the situation.

Considering the number of Shelties that excel in obedience and agility, I'd say temperaments are pretty darned sound overall. The breed does benefit greatly from socialization from an early age, but they are not and should not be expected to be like Golden Retrievers in temperament. Reserved with strangers is in the breed standard.
Christy
Not that it has anything to do with the matter ... unstable in almost every way: excessive barking, excessive shyness, etc.

I'll give you barking (and it isn't considered excessive, simply a breed trait.)

I guess "excessive" is in the ear of the beholder!
However, shyness is neither correct for the breed nor common in WELL BRED Shelties. That capitalization is because unfortunately the majority of Shelties are not well bred.

Alas, that is common with many breeds. Sometimes it seems that incorrect temperaments outnumber the correct.
However, even poorly bred Shelties can be remarkably good natured. Of course, a poor temperament can leave more of an ... and most of them in rescue. I can count on one hand the number of unstable dogs that I've met.

Well, obviously what appears to the casual viewer like me to qualify as "unstable" doesn't to the person involved in the breed like you. I bow to your expertise, but I'd still consider the Shelties I have known (only about
7 or 8) to be excessively barky and/or extremely shy. Which proves nothingexcept that it clearly wouldn't be the breed for me.
Considering the number of Shelties that excel in obedience and agility, I'd say temperaments are pretty darned sound overall. The ... from an early age, but they are not and should not be expected to be like Golden Retrievers in temperament.

I wouldn't expect any herding breed to be like a retriever in temperament, would you?
Reserved with strangers is in the breed standard.

I'm accustomed to reserved-with-strangers breeds, since I've had GSDs most of my life, but of the Shelties owned by people I know currently, half will accept no attention at all from a stranger, no matter what, shying away from everyone and I mean shying, rather than exhibiting reserve and the other half bark hysterically and nip.
The likelihood is that, like a lot of pets, they weren't well socialized and trained.
I guess "excessive" is in the ear of the beholder!

True, true. I honestly don't even notice it most of the time - when it is joyous barking in play, it just goes in one ear and out the other. I don't go for nonstop boredom barking and it isn't a problem with my guys.
Well, obviously what appears to the casual viewer like me to qualify as "unstable" doesn't to the person involved in ... be excessively barky and/or extremely shy. Which proves nothing except that it clearly wouldn't be the breed for me. [/nq]I think of "unstable" as something seriously affecting the dog's ability to exist in a way that is pleasant for the dog AND owner - fear biting, complete unsocialization, etc. While there are certainly many shelties that fall towards the shyer side of reserved, if they are able to warm up to strangers and not huddle trembling under a coffee table, then I don't think of them as unstable. I have met the latter, and even some of those can be rehabbed with the right owner and a lot of patience.

But I would definitely say this is not the breed for everyone, or even for a majority of folks, as it is an easy breed to really damage with mishandling and lack of socialization. And most certainly not for folks who can't stand barking or folks who want a super outgoing, never met a person they didn't like type of dog (and that is definitely NOT my type of dog, though I enjoy visiting with them.)
I wouldn't expect any herding breed to be like a retriever in temperament, would you?

No, but you'd be suprised how many folks think all dogs should be Goldens. Of course, I've met so many Goldens that don't act like Goldens should, that I don't even know what that is anymore!
I'm accustomed to reserved-with-strangers breeds, since I've had GSDs most of my life, but of the Shelties owned by people ... other half bark hysterically and nip. The likelihood is that, like a lot of pets, they weren't well socializedand trained.

Hmmm. Yeah, I'd say lack of socialization probably contributes hugely to that, at least the shy vs reserved part. Hysteria and nipping, that is definitely not the norm and could be the lack of socialization compounded with poor genetic temperament. It is a shame that is all you've been exposed to - wish you could come to one of our rescue picnics and meet a few dozen that have been abandoned, neglected, rehomed (sometimes multiple times) and yet are perfectly happy to meet new folks and may even climb in a lap and give a few kisses.
Christy
You punks are pathetic. You choke shock bribe
crate and murder dogs and blame it on THEM.
I tried the suggestion by Rocky and included Janet's suggestion. When Dinah was doing her mouthing thing, I took her muzzle in hand with a stern voiced No and when I let go and she did not continue the mouthing I rewarded her with a treat and a chewable. She took the treat and held the chewable for a moment and then dropped it. Today, day 3, when she started the mouth thing I said NO and she stopped. I might point out that her mouthing is not initially directed to any part of me but is more generally directed so that my NO comes only when a part of my anatomy comes within range.

She is a bichon and so can't really do much serious damage, though puncture wounds can get infected. Whenever another dog comes over, there is always a spell of chasing, barking, growling (with tails wagging) and mouthing by both dogs. I take this as dog play, but watch to see if anything develops - nothing has yet.

John Ferman
Minneapolis, MN
BWEEAAAHHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!
Thank you!
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