Since this is a place I can share this little story, I will. Its long ticked me off, because I know there are way to many people out there like this guy, and wonder what it is I should have said to him.Here is the tale..several years ago, I was house sitting for my mother, who has 2 lovely rotties, Sophie and Simon. Simon is a massive rottie, well bigger than a male of the breed should be, he is a giant of a dog, and the biggest dork dog you have ever met, he is dopey as all get out, sweet as a kitten, and thinks his 200lbs is meant to be cuddled in your lap. When I say he is a giant, I really mean it, his sister is normal sized, so he is a bit of an oddball from his litter, but lets just say, he could put my head in his mouth, and still have room for a 10lb steak.

I am only 4'11 and weight about 98lbs (small women in my family, so its a genetic thing) So I figure, lets take the dogs, one at a time over to the dog park for a run and some fun in a new place. Plus, I liked to show off Simon, he was my fav out of the two. While he is was huge, he was perfectly formed for his size, and cars would come to a stop in the middle of the road just so the folks inside could stare at him. I load him into the car just fine, pack a few toys for him to carry around (as he didn't seem to understand the "fetch game" he would watch you throw with great interest, go over to where you threw whatever it was, then come running back with this look, like "hey, great throw you got there!" leaving the object behind him, still on the ground.

However, he was very polite and would go get you something else to throw, and praise you muchly for a fine effort.).
I get to the park, take out the toys first, buckle on my fanny pack of doggie bags for pooh and a collapsable water dish, grab the leash, make sure there aren't any other really big dogs running free that seem to be too excited or aggressive near by, and let Simon out of the car with leash attached. We get about 20 feet near the park fence, then BAM! Simon rushes forward, knocks me right off of my feet and "almost" drags me along.

Here we stop with the story from my side of things. Now, what the guy who ran over to me said what he saw, was a dog too big for me to handle, and could have hurt not only me but others. He said that I was irresponsible for having him in public, and I should use a prong and/or shock collar on a dangerous dog. I just said he was fine, I was sorry and mumbled a few more sorrys, then went over to the other side of the park.
Now we start again. I fall over, the leash goes taunt, Simon stops, whirls around, sees me on the ground, rushes over to me, and starts licking me frantically until I grab at his neck to haul myself up, telling him I am ok, pat him muchly, then we brush me off and go forward, with Simon sticking close by, looking at me constantly, to make sure I am right next to him. He was horribly embarassed that I fell over, seemed to know he had done that, and was quite upset over it.

Even to the point of not leaving to run when I unleashed him and told him to "go play", but still sniffing and licking at me. I ended up having to do a jog to get him going and giving him his pully toy to carry in his mouth as he pranced around. At this point, while I am laughing at Simon and telling him what a silly boy he is, the guy comes over and tells me his opinion.
Well, for one thing, I was confused as to what he was saying. I had never heard of a shock collar before, but understood right away what it was. If he really thought that the dog was dangerous, why was he standing less than 5 feet from it? Why on earth would anyone use pain to calm a dog down, especially a massive dog, who could go through a plate glass window like it was paper? And how the heck did he think that any dog would then understand that you were not his enemy if he figured out that YOU were the one hurting him? Would he have said the same thing if I had been standing there with a Neo Mastiff, also know as the Sherman Tanks of the dog world?
What was funny to me about all this, at the time, was that while he was telling this to me, Simon was laying on the ground, wiggling his butt in the air, while a yorkie puppy, who had rushed over to Simon, "attacked" him and the puppies owner was cracking up over it, as Simon rolled over on his back and "submitted" to the puppy for a few moments and "died", than stood up, the puppy fell on its butt, looked really confused about it, then pounced again, while Simon pranced about it, egging it on.

It was cute as all get out, and was showing just how undangerous Simon's personality was. As he was clearly demonstrating that he was engaging in proper puppy playing manners, that any well balanced dog would do instinctively to a puppy that was about as big as his ear!
The Yorkie lady and I wandered away from him after that, with her telling me to ignore him, that Simon was great and it was great that he was so good with puppies. I told her about how he had been raised with cats, who ruled the house over him and would make him wait to eat from his dish, while they checked it to see if they might want some first, (the cat who does this the most, is about 5lbs of orange fluff and no claws. Simon just sighs and steps back.) and I thought that it had helped him to pay closer attention to his size and strength, since he was very gentle by nature. The dogs then shared the water dish, found a few goldens to play with, then we went home.

I still think I should have come up with a really good comeback to that guy though, something along the lines of using a prong collar on him and seeing how he would like it, or asking to use a shock collar on him, so I could practise torturing my dog before I was allowed out of the house...or, that I had just told him to sit on a stick and spin! I don't even want to think about his poor dogs..
Megan
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I also own a Rottie that sounds like a pretty good copy of Simon and I'm a small women. The fact that the dog, no matter what breed, pulled you down (irrelevant of whether or not he was sorry for doing it) shows that you don't posses the size or strength to control the dog. My rottie is very well trained, he can walk by me without a leash but when in a public setting I like to be prepared, actually I'm obligated to be prepared, and to be able to have constant control over my dog at all times.

The fact that he "unseated" you showed that you didn't have that control. I think the guy's suggestion was made in a rude fashion but it was an accurate assessment of the situation. The fact that Simon is a Rottie makes people feel a little less secure about you not having control and more apt to make a rude comment. Is that fair - NO, but it's a fact of life you get use to when you own a Rottie. I do NOT personally approve of shock collars. There is nothing wrong with a prong collar if you know how to properly utilize it.

It actually has a lower injury rate than a flat buckle collar. I use a prong for training only. For walks I use a Halti.
Well, it actually showed that I had the lead too short to allow for his movement properly, so that if he had started at anything, such as a bee in his face, or had tripped over his feet, which he was known to do, I would have been pulled. I can see now that I didn't add that part in, which I should have, otherwise, its not at all clear why I was so upset over it all later. But it was supposed to have gone in at the part where I was checking to see what other dogs were there and shortening his lead, in case there was an aggressive dog nearby.
Big DUH on me for not being clear and posting that out without checking it over first. My bad.
Megan
Well, I do use a prong collar on Chloe and this morning was a good example. Its 615am and we are out for a walk. Its pitch black out still, and we live in a neighborhood with no streetlights and houses set far from the road w/ large yards. At one point an armadillo runs across the road right in front of us. Like any dog, Chloe made a quick burst to chase. She leapt to the end of her lead. Litterally jumped in the air, and I let loose of the slack lead I keep in my hand, so that it would extend the leash to the max length, extended my arm and leaned forward in an effort to leave as much slack on the prong as possible, as I announce "Chloe HEAL,," She landed with a couple inches to spare, reached the end of her leash and sat down...

of course her nose and tail are going a mile a minute. SHe only received a minor correction on the leash from her own forceful forward leap, but because I allow for extra lead and such,. Also, being 55lbs, she is still a strong dog and could have thrown me off balance if I had her leash restricted and didn't allow for slack.

I can see where the bonehead came from who corrected you. I can see that someone who is a bystander seeing a woman that is half the size of her dog and the dog beign a rottie ... this leads to cause some nervousness. I've seen some real idiots bring uncontrollable dogs and non sociallized dogs to the parks before. Rotties have a reputation of being big, mean and aggressive, although I've never met one like that in public. Usually they are happy go lucky big ol' dufuses that are willing to please any and everyone.

My Chloe has a similar look to a pitbull (coloring, size and stalkyness of legs only) so I do get the question of "friendly?" when we go to the dog park. I always say "very friendly, non aggressive but still a puppy who needs proper socializing"
And recently while in Homedepot with her, I actually had a couple come up, pet chloe, and the husband started antagonizing Chloe into aggressive type play. The wife immediately corrected her husband with "Leave her alone, the dog is in training"... (as I'm calming reminding Chloe to sit still). It was actually a good "training" situation for her and Chloe reacted commendably.
ticked guy, well say bit my "fetch sure for ok, ... manners, about me they the steps shared guy seeing I

jayjay
http://home.comcast.net/~jennifer.is/chloe web/c index.html
Well, whatever the guy thought about what he saw, by the time he walked over to me to speak his mind, he would have also seen the same dogs reaction to what had happened, go into heel immediately and remain that way, remain still and in sit when unleashed, seen me have to prompt him to "go play", and while he was chastising me, the same dog play dead for an itty bitty puppy. He also would have seen, what we all do when we go to dog parks, dogs running around like mad, ignoring their owners calls to come, sit, stay and having to be taken away from others dogs for playing too rough, while my dog was doing none of those things.

And if he had been watching me, as closely as he indicated he was, he would also have seen that I had the leash WAY too short for the dog at the time.
So from about 15 minutes of observation, he saw a 10 second snafu, and 14 min 50 seconds of prefect action, and from that, he thought the dog needed a cruel, painful and pointless collaring technique, who's only purpose is to harm and frighten the dog into doing what you want, rather than training it to do so.Why do you use a prong collar on Chloe? (great name by the way) Does she have a hearing problem or something that doesn't allow for verbal command? I see from what you say a bit later that she is a still young, how long do you plan to use a prong collar? Or are you already doing more extensive training to stop her from rushing off on the chase when on a lead and adding in a stronger "come" or "down" command? What are her color markings? I have a fondness for dogs such as that.

Rotties, mastiff's, bull breeds, while I have heard there are aggressive ones, I have never met one like that in RL, even with a few rescue dogs, who's life story would make anyone with a heart cry. After they get their confidence back, and are with people they actually like, they can let themselves shine as the good natured, eager helpers that they are.Lucky and Echo, who both still have buckshot buried in their bodies, are great examples of that. Pit Bull/Rottie black and tan mixes both of them, abused (cuts, scars, and ticks all over) starving, found in Texas, on the side of the road. Lucky was down, bleeding from his wounds, and Echo was standing over him, dripping blood herself, staring at the road when my friends drove by. For whatever reason, Echo seemed to know that they were about to be helped, and while my friends rushed out of the car towards them, she simply wimpered and stepped aside as Lucky was picked up and carried to the car.

She followed, got in, and then collasped herself. After much vet care, food and caring, both are happy, strong, living in Oregon, with a family who adore them. That they still like humans stuns me.

Megan
a cruel, painful and pointless collaring technique, who's only purpose is to harm and frighten the dog into doing what you want, rather than trainingit to do so.

Erm- no offense, but you obviously don't know much about either prong collars or shock collars. Properly used, neither one of them causes pain, harms, or frightens the dog in any way. Have you ever actually FELT a shock collar? I have, and it wasn't even remotely painful. As far as prong collars being painful- my lurcher is extraordinarily sensitive to physical pain and discomfort. For example, when she got stung by a bee (something my other dogs barely notice), she hobbled on three legs for a good ten minutes, she gets upset at getting shots from the vet, she'll shriek if you accidentally step on her and so forth. (This isn't uncommon in sighthounds, incidentally.)
A prong collar doesn't bother her in the slightest- or rather, the heavier size doesn't; the lighter-weight one did because it tangled in and pulled her fur.
BTW I've only used it when she was recovering from a nasty respiratory infection, and needed the least pressure on her throat. She's not exactly a puller, but does tend to lean into collars when she sees something she wants to chase. She'll lean right into the prong collar, just as she does on the flat martingale I normally use- the prong just puts less pressure on her trachea. And believe me, this dog would absolutely let me know if she found the prong collar painful or even remotely uncomfortable; she's a bit of a drama queen, though she's genuinely physically sensitive, as well.
Megan

I think what Kelly is saying has truth in it but I think the main point of this whole thing is being missed.
You really, really need to get Simon some training. Not only will it help you control him and him not pull you down but just daily activities will be a lot easier for you.
I totally disagree about the shock collar thing.. I thought those were to keep the dog from barking.
But a prong collar could be used for training purposes only, I don't know how much it hurts a dog but from my understanding it will provide a pinch to the dog's neck and this will keep him from pulling which in turn the prong collar will not hurt him.
But if you are worried about it, go to proffesional traing and train him on how to heal with you.
Rotties are willing to please and easy to train from what I've heard so that won't be a problem but I would hate to think what would happen to you if he decides one day to chase after a car or something with you holding his leash.
Cymbaline
Oh, good lord, anyone who tries to say that animals don't think in any way the same as a person would, has never seen a drama queen pet react to something in the exact same way as any human one would! My sisters cat Jake was one. He pulled this "hurt paw" thing whenever he got caught doing something he knew he shouldn't do (getting up on the bookcase, trying to casually bump food off of your plate, attacking the phone cord to try to knock the phone to the floor, because he liked to swat the phone around on the tile.

The usual cat stuff.). All you would have to do, is look at him and say "ohhh Jake..." in an aghast tone, and up went the paw and he would limp slowly away, stopping to look all forlornly at you every so often. He did that from the time he was one, hurt his paw jumping off the window sill and we all coddled him like mad.
No offense taken at all, we just have a different opinion when it comes to those types of things. We each have a reasons for it that we think are valid. If we all expected for everyone to have the same idea's, then we wouldn't have joined an unmoderated public group.
Megan
I totally disagree about the shock collar thing.. I thought those were to keep the dog from barking.

There are two types of shock collars, aka e-collars. One is triggered by the dog making sound, and is generally referred to as a "bark collar". The other is triggered by a remote control. The latter can be useful in teaching a number of things, but is most commonly used for long-distance and/or off-leash recall. However, it takes a lot of skill and timing to use one correctly, and it's not just a matter of sticking it on the dog- you have to TEACH the dog how to respond to it.
Since using an e-collar properly needs skill and timing, and e-collars are expensive, it's certainly not something I'd suggest off-the-cuff to somebody who appeared to be an unskilled dog owner with a friendly but somewhat unruly dog.
But a prong collar could be used for training purposes only, I don't know how much it hurts a dog

If the collar is used and fitted properly, it doesn't hurt. However, I've known of a few dogs who were weirded out either by the weight or the feel of it. As I posted upthread, my extremely sensitive lurcher isn't bothered at all by a heavy prong.
but from my understanding it will provide a pinch to the dog's neck and this will keep him from pulling which in turn the prong collar will not hurt him.

Properly used and fitteed prong collars do self-correct, you're right. If the dog pulls, the collar tightens; if the dog eases up, the collar loosens.
But if you are worried about it, go to proffesional traing and train him on how to heal with you.

Minor point of note: the word is "heel"- as in the part of your body you want the dog to walk beside- not "heal"- as in curing an illness or injury.
Rotties are willing to please and easy to train from what I've heard so that won't be a problem but ... happen to you if he decides one day to chase after a car or something with you holding his leash.

Yep. My mamgi (grandmother) used to tell me, every time she saw me with one of my dog, never to wrap the leash around my hand more than once- because she knew somebody who was killed when her dog pulled her in front of a bus. (No, I have no idea if she really did, or if she made it up. ) In real life, I know more than one person who's been injured by being pulled down by their own dog.
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