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To me that *is* positive training, keeping an open mind and finding what works best, is clearest for the dog.

Then a PPer who refuses* to keep an open mind, or try something that works even better and is clearest for the dog, must be engaging in *negativetraining, right? Emotion: smile
I agree.
I am hammering on this point because the usual response is "it can't be done" or pointing out that no one has reached high levels without this or that tool or technique.

Elephants can't fly, Elizabeth, no matter how hard they flap their ears.
It's a fact.

Handsome "Jack" Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. A: Why is top posting frowned upon?
To me that *is* positive training, keeping an open mind and finding what works best, is clearest for the dog.

Then a PPer who refuses* to keep an open mind, or try something that works even better and is clearest for the dog, must be engaging in *negativetraining, right? Emotion: smile I agree.

I completely believe that is correct. In fact I have seen dogs fail with PP training often enough to know, it is not the method for every dog and probably a source of frustration at times.

Gwen
Quoth "Handsome \"Jack\" Morrison" (Email Removed) on Tue,
25 Nov 2003 19:32:58 GMT,
To me that *is* positive training, keeping an open mind and finding what works best, is clearest for the dog.

Then a PPer who refuses* to keep an open mind, or try something that works even better and is clearest for the dog, must be engaging in *negativetraining, right? Emotion: smile

I started to say, absolutely. I guess reading very closely, I won't agree ABSOLUTELY; no, you don't have to try everything, even if some people on the newsgroups say it works even better and is clearest for the dog. But you know the old saying that dog trainers have opinions about dog training and dogs have the facts! Whatever one's philosophy and whatever one's methods, we have to judge by how the dog responds.

I guess I wouldn't call someone a negative trainer for deciding not to use a particular tool or method, as long as they had thought it over and understood the benefits and disadvantages and were willing to live without them. If you can't get the behaviors you need for the field trial without an e-collar, then you'd need to try the e-collar OR decide that field work at that level isn't that important to you.

Either choice is "positive" as far as I'm concerned. The positive is in thinking it over, in reading the dog's reactions and not our preconceptions about what's best for the dog.
Clear as mud, most likely. The reason I enjoy these discussions is because it makes me think about what I think...
Elephants can't fly, Elizabeth, no matter how hard they flap their ears. It's a fact.

Elephants can fly in airplanes. Probably depending on the size and weight capacity of the plane, of course.
Otherwise, no, they don't have the muscles or the ear area to fly by flapping their ears. Dogs, however, are physically capable of performing in field trials. Not the same thing.

Only know that there is no spork.
Why doesn't she want to train her dog herself?

She does, but she wants to work with a trainer that shares her shining happy training vision.
Beth
Susan,
Thanks for the great answer. I'll see if Joyce is on list you mentioned and recommend that she read the Clicker Journal, if she doesn't already. Beth
I completely believe that is correct. In fact I have seen dogs fail with PP training often enough to know, it is not the method for every dog and probably a source of frustration at times.

Hopefully this time I'll manage to put down my thoughts before I hit send! Gwen, I can't agree more with what you said. I think the dog in question is one that would appreciate being told in no uncertain terms when he is incorrect.
Beth
What does this woman consider "positive?" There's a range of "positive" training methods and trainers. If she is into clicker training, there is a mailing list that is really wonderful. That's where I'd ask if anyone is doing field work and how far they've gotten.

I'm not sure what she considers positive. She is a confusing woman when she talks about training because all she wants to do is "positive" and won't do anything she considers "abusive." She won't define what she considers positive but I know she puts the e collar in the "abusive" column.
r does she just want to develop her dog's working ability and demonstrate it at more of the entry level?

I don't think she even knows. This is her second dog. The first one apparently is a nice pet and this one is a basically out of control ill-mannered young lab that has never been told not to do something. The scary thing is that she has magnetic sign on her vehicle advertising herself as an in home pet trainer.
Beth
Tea. Through the nose. Not good. Your fault. ;-)

Debbie
Quoth (Email Removed) (Bethgsd) on 25 Nov 2003 23:09:27 GMT,
I'm not sure what she considers positive. She is a confusing woman when she talks about training because all she ... "abusive." She won't define what she considers positive but I know she puts the e collar in the "abusive" column.

See, that's a big problem with "positive" and "pure positive" training. They're really slippery terms and too often they have little to no meaning.
I think wanting to train our dogs kindly, gently, without hurting them, is a great thing. Absolutely. I hate it when the whole world gets divided into fuzzy-warm "positive" and all-out "abusive", with tools and methods placed in their respective categories without regard to how the dogs react to them, and without any middle ground.

Actually, the clicker list would probably help her a lot with this.
I don't think she even knows. This is her second dog. The first one apparently is a nice pet and this one is a basically out of control ill-mannered young lab that has never been told not to do something.

Oy. Sounds to me like she needs to do some basic manners and basic obedience work before tackling the joys of a serious working relationship. Fortunately, clicker- and other positive training classes are very available for basic obedience. I hope she doesn't consider herself above a basic class (and if she does, don't point out the obvious, just suggest that a nice positive obedience class would give her the opportunity to work with a roomful of other dogs and people).
The scary thing is that she has magnetic sign on her vehicle advertising herself as an in home pet trainer.

Ooog.

Only know that there is no spork.
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