Now that my evaluation of Jerry's methods are complete (to my satisfaction), I am moving on to find other training venues for Muttley. I had previously contacted a local trainer with 45 years experience, who had said he could break Muttley of his "pulling" behavior "easily", and recommended his group class at the senior center in Jacksonville, Baltimore County. Tonight I called him again, and discussed the situation in more detail.I asked if I could observe his class, which he said was $55 for 10 sessions starting September. He asked what I wanted to know. "Your methods", I replied, and he said, "I use a choke chain, no food or treats". I said, "No problem, I use a choker and a prong, but he blows them off". He said, "You have to know how to use them", and I said, like "Duh". I said, "so you use Koehler methods", and he said, "No, you read too much".

He asked about other issues. I explained, "Mostly just the pulling and not paying attention to me". Then I explained that I had taken him to obedience classes, and he had attacked another dog. He said he "would not have a dog like that". I explained that he was similar to an Anatolian, and was rescued off the streets. He was surprised that a purebred like that would be on the streets, but I explained that he was a mix.

Then he said that he could not allow an aggressive dog in his class. I said, "I understand, but do you do private lessons?" He said yes, $35 a session, three sessions for a complete basic obedience class. But he said he has a bad back, and could not accept Muttley, because he might not be able to control him if he had to "do something". I asked if there might be assistants at his class who could handle Muttley, and he said that he does the entire class by himself.
I asked if I could bring him to his home to meet us and evaluate him. He said no, and said again that he would not have a dog like that, and all his dogs were raised from puppies. He said, essentially, that his past unknown history of abuse, neglect, lack of training, or whatever, would make him unsuitable for obedience training. I asked if he could suggest anyone else, and he did not.
OK. Now what?
I have contacted Joy Freedman, who is Helene's neighbor, and a locally famous dog trainer who runs www.4pawspetservices.com. She said she could evaluate Muttley in August, when it would not be so busy. An assistant at Pat Miller's Peaceable Paws camp said that, based on Muttley's application, I would need to take him there first for an in-person() evaluation. I could also possibly contact the behaviorist / trainer who visited Muttley and me in October, and offered a single session for $200, or four for $500. He used a combination of treats and collar pops to get Muttley's attention and make him wait for approval before going after some treats he had tossed on the ground.
Probably there would be no guarantees of success from any of these trainers. Of course, the training is as much of the handler as the animal. I'm sure Muttley already knows the basic commands. When sufficiently motivated, and not overly distracted, he obeys instantly, or sooner (anticipating the command). The main problem is his lack of attention, or more likely, his refusal to obey a command when he thinks there is a better option, like just sitting, or trying to go where he wants.

If there were some sort of guarantee of success, or even an offer of reasonable continued refresher sessions, I'd be more willing to shell out $500 or more. But I'm not about to throw huge amounts of money at something that is not a big deal to me. I was astounded when Hope (Email Removed), who replied here to my Training #1 post, bragged on the AOL CBB:
"Yes, I actually trained her. :::gasp!!!::: I'd never trained a dog before and it took me a bit to find a method that fit both her and I, but I persisted through and put my money on the line to get there. Far more than the measly $700 you're whining about for a Pat Miller camp, easily sums in
5 digits at this point. Shy was a nice dog but with the training hasblossomed into one absolutely incredible dog who has learned to embrace life rather than fear it. I made the monetary investment as well as the committment of my time, because when I adopted her I promised to give her the best life that I could."
I shake my head thinking how many other dogs could be saved if she had spent a more reasonable amount and donated the rest to shelters and rescues. Probably so much extra training was because she insisted on pushing her rescued dog to excel at obedience trials. My opinion is that some dogs, because of genetics or past experiences, may not be suitable for such work. This may prove that almost anything is possible with enough money and effort, but I think, in her case, this was an ego thing on her part. If a dog learns easily and enjoys being in the spotlight, great. But it is probably wrong, possibly even cruel or unsafe, to push a dog too hard.
Basic obedience is necessary, and until it can be achieved, precautions and maintenance are needed. I'm OK with Muttley, and I recognize his, and my, limitations. He seems happy enough to greet me at the door, tail awag, and anxious to take his walk, but also willing to wait quietly until I tend to things. He will play occasionally, and enjoys being hugged and petted. He usually responds to reasonable requests, is totally reliable in the house, and is showing some improvement in his leash manners. I think his demeanor is pretty strongly hardwired, and I think he may never achieve even normal levels of obedience without truly extreme measures that may cause stress and aggression. But I would like to have this confirmed by a professional, or debunked by success.
Paul and Muttley
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
I shake my head thinking how many other dogs could be saved if she had spent a more reasonable amount and donated the rest to shelters and rescues.

ya know, your post was what I considered genuine and reasonable until you started slagging on Hope. She adopted a dog and she opted to give that dog the best life possible. WTH is wrong with you?
As to the rest of what you're saying, I hope you are sincere about finding a good trainer. Breed rescues can be great resources. Look for the best breed rescue in your area (start on Petfinder if you have to), the one who has lots of fund raisers, very strict adoption policies, dogs in good foster homes, maybe even a nice website. Call them up and ask them for a reference to a good behaviorist or private trainer. Tell them you have a big, powerful dog who has previously attacked another dog in group class. Try to spare them any rambling insights about why you think this happened... I've gotten really great references for both a vet (finally have a vet I LOVE) and a behaviorist who was very good, both from our local Golden Retriever rescue.
Paul, please stay on track and move forward with Muttley.

Lynne
OK. Now what? I have contacted Joy Freedman, who is Helene's neighbor, and a locally famous dog trainer who runs ... treats he had tossed on the ground. Probably there would be no guarantees of success from any of these trainers.

There is never a guarantee of success from any training program. Any program that guarantees success is one that you should look at very carefully.
Of course, the training is as much of the handler as the animal. I'm sure Muttley already knows the basic ... a command when he thinks there is a better option, like just sitting, or trying to go where he wants.

You have already been given several techniques in this group on how to make Muttley pay more attention to you. Try those for a couple of weeks, several times a day (short sessions, 5-10 minutes, after a walk when Muttley is a bit physically tired) and I think that you will see Muttley starting to pay more attention to you.

Paul, your hypocrisy is showing again.
Basic obedience is necessary, and until it can be achieved, precautions and maintenance are needed. I'm OK with Muttley, and I recognize his, and my, limitations.

You don't know his limitations, because you haven't really tested him. You have tried a couple things, it didn't work, so you tried a couple of different things, and they didn't work either.

Marcel Beaudoin and Moogli
OK. Now what?

http://www.dobe.net/Trainers/md.doc (provided by Doberman Rescue) http://www.magsr.org/trainers.htm (provided by GSD Rescue) http://www.marylandinfo.com/Pets and Animals/Dog Training/ http://yellowpages.washingtonpost.com/Baltimore 2C+MD/Dog+Training.zq-10.html http://www.metropets.org/YellowPages/trainers.php#md

Suja
I shake my head thinking how many other dogs could ... reasonable amount and donated the rest to shelters and rescues.

ya know, your post was what I considered genuine and reasonable until you started slagging on Hope. She adopted a dog and she opted to give that dog the best life possible. WTH is wrong with you?

Apparently, Muttley isn't quite his dog yet. When (if) that happens, Paul will realize that it's more important to do right by one's own critters than it is to distribute largesse to the masses.

Paul went on to write:
Basic obedience is necessary, and until it can be achieved, precautions and maintenance are needed.

Precautions and maintenance will be required no matter how successful you are in training Muttley in any kind of obedience. The types of precautions and elements of maintenance may evolve to incorporate his training, but you'll always need to remain vigilant when Muttley interacts with the rest of the world. That's just the way it is.

My roommate's grandson is taking his dog through the 4-H program here. In the last two weeks, she's started barking/lunging at other dogs both in and out of class. That's a major problem when 80 lb dogs are handled by 40 lb owners, whether she's issuing a rough invitation to play or is being aggressive. I offered to help him work on these issues because I've had similar issues with both ACDs. His mom, who's known my dogs since I got them, was shocked. She had no idea that any of my dogs were dog aggressive. That's because I've worked to keep them from acting on those impulses. (True, I let my guard down in the Rally class, and Ranger snarked at a couple of dogs the first night. A timely reminder, that.)
I think he may never achieve even normal levels of obedience without truly extreme measures that may cause stress and aggression. But I would like to have this confirmed by a professional, or debunked by success.

You expect failure, you get failure.
You expect failure, you get failure.

bears repeating!!

Lynne
Now that my evaluation of Jerry's methods are complete (to my satisfaction), I am moving on to find other training ... him unsuitable for obedience training. I asked if he could suggest anyone else, and he did not. OK. Now what?

Obviously a trainer worth exactly what you'd be paying him. Maybe he just didn't like you?
Probably there would be no guarantees of success from any of these trainers. Of course, the training is as much of the handler as the animal.

A good part of any chance for success would be your compliance and commitment. So far you haven't gotten what I would consider any really good training but you've been quick to sabotage any attempts to help you train your dog. When you guarantee failure, how do you expect someone else to guarantee success?
If there were some sort of guarantee of success, or even an offer of reasonable continued refresher sessions, I'd be ... But I'm not about to throw huge amounts of money at something that is not a big deal to me.

You are SUCH a cheap weenie.
I was astounded when Hope (CanineDiv...@gmail.com), who replied here to my Training #1 post, bragged on the AOL CBB: "Yes, ... in the spotlight, great. But it is probably wrong, possibly even cruel or unsafe, to push a dog too hard.[/nq]Odd that your lazy, cheapass inability to commit to your dog really has nothing to do with Hope and her dog. Or that you would answer here something posted on another venue. I shake my head when I hear of your wrong headed, ignorant "rescue" efforts which do not include safe and involved foster care, S/N or responsible screening of permanent or foster homes. Of dogs locked in garages or chained to gazebos by choke chains. You seem to think that there is nothing more to rescue than you and your collector friend lying to shelters and representing yourself as an organization you don't belong to in order to get free dogs.

On the other hand, I know Hope as a person who has fostered, transported, home checked and worked hard for more than one rescue organization, been responsible for fundraising activities and putting on benefit agility trials for a national rescue. Some people enjoy training and competing with their dogs. And the odd thing is that most of the dogs enjoy it too. People enjoy participation in sports, and dogs benefit from added time spent learning new skills and being with their people.

Often it creates a much greater bond. But of course, it's not for the person who doesn't want to ask much of his dog, or have his dog ask much of him. Obviously because it does involve a fair amount of commitment, and sometimes money, it's not something that would appeal to you personally. And I don't, for a minute, believe that the money you save by refusing to invest in your dog will be donated to any legitimate rescue or shelter. Broom Sandy
Muttley and I would greatly enjoy meeting you and the Elkhounds. I emailed you with more information, but I am ... your continued interest in Muttley. So let's make it so. Paul- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -

Careful, Diddy. I think Paul is looking for a date. (or, maybe just more free training) BroomSandy
in thread Sandy in OK (Email Removed) whittled the following words:
Muttley and I would greatly enjoy meeting you and the ... Paul- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -

Careful, Diddy. I think Paul is looking for a date. (or, maybe just more free training) BroomSandy[/nq]No date. I'm happily married and I'm no "babe" like he's searching for. Free training? By the by-laws of our dog club, I'm not ALLOWED to charge training for services. That's all I offer is free training. I'm not a professional trainer. I have classes in tracking and obedience that I teach 5 days a week. Every one of them is free. I keep getting free referrals this time of year, 4-h kids gearing up for competition and want private lessons. again, I may not charge.

But I enjoy teaching, and really get a kick out of watching them progress, when they were stagnant before. If he wants free tips and training suggestions, he's more than welcome to them. If he takes them, fine, if he rejects them, I'm not insulted. It's not like I invested a year of free training in him. It's kind of funny.. In preparing my dog for the upcoming exhibition, I entered the local 4th of July best trained pet competition. I wanted Tuck to perform publicly.

He hasn't, you know.
So I packed up his gear and we did our thing on the school house lawn. We got disqualified for being "professionally trained" They said we'd sweep all the catagories offered except largest pet, smallest pet, and best costume. .. HAH!! I'm a serious hobbyist! But they did ask us to put on a show and carted us on a wagon as we performed in the parade. Since I've never accepted a dime for any sort of training, and often it costs me to offer these services, I had to laugh at the professionally trained bit.
Show more