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Sorry...wanted to add to a part of your post but the rest was pretty much aimed at the original post. Wasn't sure if I should have replied twice or what. LOL

Again, no problemo, Jessica. It was a little confusing, yes, but no blood, no foul.

Retraining can take longer because the dog's current behavior (usually undesirable) has already been strongly reinforced through repetition.

Training always goes faster when you can start with a clean slate.

That's why it behooves all new dog-owners to get started with OBEDIENCE TRAINING as early as possible.

Handsome Jack Morrison
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"Handsome Jack Morrison" (Email Removed) wrote in message
I've been using choke collars (yes, even on all those "sensitive" Rotties) for well over 40 years now (among other ... combined. I can already see that 2005 will be much like 2004. So many stupid people, so little time. Sheesh.

The choke collar has been in use for less than 100 years - I believe it was introduced in about 1914
Dog came to hang around human camps many hundreds of 1000's of years ago, and I bet their motivation wasn't a sharp jerk round the neck,

Traditional methods are that a dog relies on his pack for warmth, comfort, food and safety. Relatively modern methods are that we cause a dog pain and potential injury for non compliance...
Diana
()
I've been using choke collars (yes, even on all those ... like 2004. So many stupid people, so little time. Sheesh.

The choke collar has been in use for less than 100 years - I believe it was introduced in about 1914

And your point there is...what, exactly?
Dog came to hang around human camps many hundreds of 1000's of years ago, and I bet their motivation wasn't a sharp jerk round the neck,

It's comments just like that one, Diana, that convinces me that you don't know diddly squat about traditional training (or maybe dog training in general), or the proper use of choke collars.

If your objective is to simply get your* dog to hang around *your house, all you probably need is a little food.
But if your objective is to have an OBEDIENT companion dog, that you can take anywhere in complete safety, or recall immediately on just one blast of a whistle, even with heavy distractions, yada yada yada, traditional collar and leash training will help you get there faster and more reliably than any method not involving the use of an e-collar.
And that's a fact.
Traditional methods are that a dog relies on his pack for warmth, comfort, food and safety.

Well, try getting your dog to make a blind retrieve, say, to find a fallen bird 400+ yards away, across a couple of ponds, a few culverts, through a marshland, etc., and do it without spending the entire day trying, on just some warmth, comfort, food, etc.
Let me know how that goes for you, okay?
Relatively modern methods are that we cause a dog pain and potential injury for non compliance...

There's no pain, there's seldom even any minor discomfort, when training traditionally with a choke collar IF YOU KNOW HOW.

Obviously, you don't.
And until you say something here that suggests that you know anything whatsoever about traditional training (using a collar and leash), or the proper use of choke collars, you really ought to seriously consider keeping your trap shut.
We already have a sufficient number of ignoramuses around here.

One more would almost be a criminal offense.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply by e-mail
Our Oldest Enemy: France
http://www.townhall.com/bookclub/molesky.html
Tsunami disaster relief? Want to contribute something? Here's a good place to do it: http://www.sarvodaya.org /
Here's more:
http://www.command-post.org/nk/2 archives/018256.html

The U.N.
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The choke collar has been in use for less than 100 years - I believe it was introduced in about ... camps many hundreds of 1000's of years ago, and I bet their motivation wasn't a sharp jerk round the neck,

Their punishment might well have been a swift nip from another dog. Oh, heaven save us! The cruelty!
Traditional methods are that a dog relies on his pack for warmth, comfort, food and safety.

Momma Dog disciplines her puppies by growling, swatting them with her paw, and sometimes nipping.
If she's got to move her den before they can walk, she'll pick 'em up with her teeth. Oh, the horror .
Think about it logically: a brief snap from a choke collar, a nip on the nape from Momma Dog. There may not be another corrective sensation, applied by Man, that ties into a dog's instincts more perfectly than that (except perhaps the electronic collar).
Relatively modern methods are that we cause a dog pain and potential injury for non compliance...

Don't use any training method if you don't know how.

Many generations of dogs have been trained with choke collars correctly and shows no signs of abuse. No fear, no cringing, and they love to get their collar on and go for walkies. In my youth, I was acquainted with a number of dogs that had been shown and taken through advanced obedience degrees, trained with a choke collar (for the on-leash work).
For a human to use a small amount of brief discomfort in training a dog is not cruelty. The dog understands it and does not resent it.
It's the same method that Momma Dogs have been using to train their own puppies for generations.
And ditto what Handsome Jack has been saying.
flick 100785
() And your point there is...what, exactly?

That its not that traditional.
We don't get our clients / employees / workmates to work for us by hurting them everytime they don't do as we want - I don't get my hubby to help me with stuff by punishing him if he would rather sit in front of the telly... most of us here get our butts out of bed every morning cos if we don't earn our keep, we don't get to eat - and that too is pretty much the way that the dog has been diversified into the many breeds we have today. Those that didn't keep up, didn't work well enough at the job required of them etc, were either culled or abandoned and so denied the opportunity to continue their lines in a breeding programme.
So today, most dogs are just pets - but that's still a job that a dog can earn his keep for by being well mannered and behaved and helping out in the home too, and earning ones keep is pretty much the most natural, universal (as in something all 'animals' from ants to polar bears) 'must do' means of survival... so being the more long standing method - as in a few million years old - I would call it the more traditional method and one that a dog is more than capable of picking up on and understanding.

OK, So I don't starve my dog to get her to work for me, but she's on fairly boring, albeit a good quality kibble and I give her just under her needed requirements every day to eat as she needs to in her bowl. In my pocket, I have cooked liver, sausage, beef, pork - a fair variety of food she really likes - so she's happy to put herself out to earn the top up, using the clicker as a means of guiding her in the right direction so that its not too boring or frustrating for her. Kind, fair and without potential damage to neck vertebrae and the windpipe.
Diana
()
And your point there is...what, exactly?

That its not that traditional.

If your dictionary reads anything like mine, it's about as traditional as training can get today.
But I wonder how "traditional" clicker training is, or ever will be?
We don't get our clients / employees / workmates to work for us by hurting them everytime they don't do as we want

As long as you persist in perpetuating the fallacy that dogs are hurt when being traditionally trained with the leash and collar, you will only make people (especially the people here) think that you are stupid, ignorant, or dishonest.
Or, in your case, possibly all of the above.
So today, most dogs are just pets - but that's still a job that a dog can earn his keep ... much the most natural, universal (as in something all 'animals' from ants to polar bears) 'must do' means of survival...

My dogs earn their keep, too. But they're not just pets. They're actual members of my family, and they all have jobs. And those jobs are pretty tough to do, requiring years of training in not only what to do, but in what not to do. And neither clicker-training, nor food-based training, etc., can do that as RELIABLY or as QUICKLY as can leash and collar training.
Yes, you're invited to try to prove me wrong.
so being the more long standing method - as in a few million years old - I would call it the more traditional method and one that a dog is more than capable of picking up on and understanding.

Absolutely. But many dogs don't work for food unless you essentially starve them. I prefer not to do that (because I'm much too kindly to do ever do something like that Emotion: smile).
But I urge you to do what works best for you* and for *your dogs, so long as your dog ends up getting trained, and that it's done humanely.

I also urge you to give others here that same kind of respect.
OK, So I don't starve my dog to get her to work for me, but she's on fairly boring, albeit ... In my pocket, I have cooked liver, sausage, beef, pork - a fair variety of food she really likes -

I always keep liver treats, kibble, etc. in my pockets, too. Fancy that. I'm also pretty good doggone good at rewarding my dogs with physical and verbal praise. Especially on those FREQUENT occasions when they please me by promptly OBEYING my commands.

On the other hand, I'm also pretty good at drawing their attention to their errors, so that they learn not only what they should do, but what they shouldn't, and QUICKLY. They always seem to really enjoy this CLARITY in our relationships, and pick up on it so quickly that I seldom have to remind them more than once or twice.

Yes, and without any pain, too. A correctly administered collar pop is little more than a sound distraction, a "Eh! Eh! Wrong answer!"
she's happy to put herself out to earn the top up, using the clicker

I used to teach clicker training, Diana, so I know clicker training's shortcomings as well as its strengths.
as a means of guiding her in the right direction so that its not too boring or frustrating for her. Kind, fair and without potential damage to neck vertebrae and the windpipe.

But there is not even the potential for damage if the trainer knows what he's doing. So that pretty much leaves you out, right?

Please, stick to CT.
The potential for damage to tracheas, etc. comes from those "kindly" trainers who, instead of actually TRAINING their dogs to reliably walk on a loose leash (which usually takes all of a couple hours and with no pain whatsoever) instead allow their dogs to PULL on their leashes, literally DRAGGING them down the street, sometimes for 10-15 years(!). Now that can cause some damage.
But proper collar and leash training?
No way, Jose.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply by e-mail
Our Oldest Enemy: France
http://www.townhall.com/bookclub/molesky.html
Tsunami disaster relief? Want to contribute something? Here's a good place to do it: http://www.sarvodaya.org /
Here's more:
http://www.command-post.org/nk/2 archives/018256.html

The U.N.
http://diplomadic.blogspot.com /