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I think there are often better solutions than crating, but ... the world if he was crated for a few hours.

No, it's not the end of the world. Crates are not bad, and necessary for some situations. I always hope/advocate/advise/whatever ... "not enough time or effort". I totally understand how easy it is to fall into "we'll just crate the dog".

I think sometimes a person's experience colors how they see things. You probably see a whole lot of crate abuse in your line of work. But there are a lot of people out there who go past the line where you think crates are best used without sliding all the way to the crate abuse you worry about. I have to remind myself constantly that there is a whole world of people out there who are nothing like the population that I spend all my work time with so I don't get an overly pessimistic view of how people raise their children, too.

Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
even if he doesn't know why he was there, it kept him away from me at a time when I needed him to be away.

I do something like this when I need to be away from a dog or dogs. If it's one dog, s/he gets a time out in the bathroom, if it's dogs in general, I retreat to my bedroom with the cat.

"All fluffy butts OUTSIDE!" is heard in our house when I have just plain had it. Doesn't happen often, but when it does, they entertain themselves outside while I get a snack or drink or something and sit in peace and quiet and then they can come back in.

I brought marrow bones back from the store when I went shopping tonight. The dogs all tried to throw themselves outside as soon as they saw them come out of the grocery bag. They know I don't allow them to eat marrow bones in the house. I'll have to keep some in the freezer for the next meltdown day when I need time to myself. They are more than happy to entertain themselves outside for as long as I want under those circumstances.

Paula
"If you want to invade large swathes of Europe and Asia with an army of highly-mobile horse-archers, simply be Genghis Khan." John Salt
BWEEAAHAAAHAA!~!~!
I think sometimes a person's experience colors how they see things. You probably see a whole lot of crate abuse ... all my work time with so I don't get an overly pessimistic view of how people raise their children, too.

Yes, I do see a lot of crate abuse in my line of work, and it definitely colors how I feel. I also clean up a lot of messes made by other "trainers". There are a lot of trainers out there who are all about putting the dog in a crate whenever the dog's presence is annoying or inconvenient, or a problem of some sort. Not as a stepping stone with behavior modification, but as a permanent solution. Easier than teaching a desired behavior after all.
Part of my personal desire to not use crates permanently (in the home) is that they get in the way. Although I finally bought a crate with doors that fold up and in, so I didn't get bruises from walking into the damn door all of the time (I have quite a talent for that), they're also a pain to vacuum around. I have a not-so-big house, and had a smaller house before this, so stuff that takes up room and isn't "necessary" or aesthetically pleasing, doesn't get to stay forever!

Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
I have a not-so-big house, and had a smaller house before this, so stuff that takes up room and isn't "necessary" or aesthetically pleasing, doesn't get to stay forever!

Don't make me count the number of crates in my tiny house.

At the moment, only 2 have their doors closed: Puppies Maybe and Cadence are having nap time together in a 450, in the other is confined a juicy rawhide.
Yet most of the crates are occupied. The two favourites are the lamp stand crate (in the middle of the action) and the printer stand crate (it must vibrate when I do a lot of printing, and I am today).

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Knowing that Harriet is guardy about some things, I simply do not give them to her, or I give them to her in her closed crate. It's not the end of the world if she doesn't get another fresh cow femur, yaknow?

that's true and seems fair.
Another thing I've done is to make sure that she remembers that treats come from me, and are given to ... well has to earn anything she values highly. Even cleaning my plate after I'm done eating has to be earned.

I usually don't give our anything without it getting earned but lately the longer lasting treat dispensing toys have just be given and left out for anytime they want because I've found I need them self-entertained a lot more (based on my schedule). Making sure they were all put away was one of the first things that I did after the incident so that is something that I guess can't be done for now.
Anyone know of a good website or book or something that deals with a dog guarding a food resource and getting aggressive with another dog?

I like Ian Dunbar's set of 9 or so pamphlets, a few of which deal directly and indirectly with aggression. Another good one is Patricia McConnells The Other End of the Leash .

thanks for the recommendations. they both sound helpful.
Today, Maui scared Cali and I because he attacked her ... away so he could continue to snap/growl) over a treat.

Did you see what led up to it?

no, I was reading. they were about 6 feet away and when I heard the growling, I looked up from the book. Maui was still growling and lunging at Cali. She was backing up but he made contact with her. He backed her into the wall and wasn't giving up until I screamed.
I never saw him like that. He's growled a few ... loud "Knock it off" (which is that even good ok?).

I'm the popularly-described "Dog Shouterer." Vocal distractions work best while they're still making up their minds, though. An early Nuh-Uh! or What Exactly Are You Thinking? makes them reconsider. Lower on my scale is That'll Do.

sounds good, that's what I usually do but this time it wasn't soon enough. i will make sure to watch them closer and be quicker.
So, what are the best tips for what to do during and after an incident?

During. My first choice is a call off, then vocal distraction, then physical intervention. I try to escalate faster than the dogs.

ok.
After. Total shut down. I calm down and so do the dogs, time outs are a popular response to snarkiness.

sounds good
And how best to prevent it?

Don't let it happen. Seriously, don't put your dogs in a position where they'll fail.

I guess I need more ideas to entertain them while I do the hours of school work I need to do each day. Long lasting treats are usually easiest but I can try to think of other things.
My gut tells me that for now, Maui gets no treats or only when crated alone, but is that right?

Both dogs.

no treats for Cali except in crate or no treats with Cali unless Maui is crated?
And what the deal with crating? The incident happened about ... I know might not be fair and doesn't help anything).

Good idea.

thanks for all the input!
Both dogs.

no treats for Cali except in crate or no treats with Cali unless Maui is crated?

Since you didn't see exactly how this situation developed you should deal with both dogs similarly, which is a good rule of thumb anyway, and less confusing for all. So, either supervised treats for both, or no treats for either. Naturally, this doesn't apply when you're taking one of them away for a separate training session.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Don't make me count the number of crates in my tiny house.

Yabbut having those crates pays you money!

Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
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