Just an FYI -
I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few interesting things popped out (okay, one I checked on Google):
1. Mark Morris Institute (publisher and contributor) is an arm of Hill'sPet Nutrition (http://www.vet.ksu.edu/index/awards/2002/frey.htm).
2. An interestingly large number of contributors to the book as a whole,and a majority of the contributors to the pet food sections work or worked for either Hill's or MMI.
3. Only large industry brands were studied in the book - Eukanuba/Iams,Purina, Hill's, and Nutro.
And, on a less factual note (more my opinion) it made people interested in making homemade diets look largely like unintelligent paranoid dolts.

As a whole, I was unimpressed with the pet food section. I was really looking forward to some unbiased, clinical information on different types of pet diets.
I won't respond to any flaming posts, but if anyone who has/has read this book wants to rationally discuss their views on this reference book, I would be interested to hear (read) your thoughts.

K
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In
Just an FYI - I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few interesting things popped out ... wants to rationally discuss their views on this reference book, I would be interested to hear (read) your thoughts. K

Heh. Reference book. I haven't read it, but look forward to this thread.
In advance
I will refrain from posting in this thread from here out because it is probably going to be yet another flame war.
Just an FYI - I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few interesting things popped out ... less factual note (more my opinion) it made people interested in making homemade diets look largely like unintelligent paranoid dolts.

Specifically what was it in the book that gave you this opinion?
As a whole, I was unimpressed with the pet food section. I was really looking forward to some unbiased, clinical ... wants to rationally discuss their views on this reference book, I would be interested to hear (read) your thoughts. K

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck
3. Only large industry brands were studied in the book - Eukanuba/Iams, Purina, Hill's, and Nutro.

No, that's not true. There are numerous "no name" brands that I have never heard of in the book. Check out the appendix. Anybody else ever heard of Wafcol??
No, that's not true. There are numerous "no name" brands that I have never heard of in the book. Check out the appendix. Anybody else ever heard of Wafcol??

Sure, available in the UK.

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck
No, that's not true. There are numerous "no name" brands ... Check out the appendix. Anybody else ever heard of Wafcol??

Sure, available in the UK.

Joe, is it a major brand over there? Emotion: smile
Just an FYI - I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few interesting things popped out (okay, one I checked on Google): 1. Mark Morris Institute (publisher and contributor) is an arm of Hill's Pet Nutrition (http://www.vet.ksu.edu/index/awards/2002/frey.htm).

That is incorrect. It is correct that the founder of the Morris Animal Foundation, the largest animal philanthropy in the US is Dr. Mark Morris. It is also correct that Dr. Mark Morris, who invented Prescription Diet k/d in 1948 to treat Buddy the first Seeing Eye dog in the US, was also was the founder of Hill's - Mark Morris Associates, the publisher of SACN IV and Hill's have ZERO connections. MMA is now operated by Dr. Mark Morris Jr. the son of the founder. The only surviving financial connection of any kind is that Hill's still pays a royalty to the Morris Animal Foundation. That royalty has been in existance since the agreement between Burton Hill and Mark Morris in the early 50's.
To state that Hill's in any way has any control or any influence over MMA is a complete laugh. You have to know Dr. Morris to understand what a laughable matter that is.
2. An interestingly large number of contributors to the book as a whole, and a majority of the contributors to the pet food sections work or worked for either Hill's or MMI.

That is also entirely incorrect. The editors of the book may be MMA employees and some like Dr. Roudebush are employees of Hill's, but they are the editors, not the authors. The authors are listed in the bibliography and I'm quite sure you observed that the bibliography behind each chapter illustrates that the authors are the individuals who know the most about that particular issue. For instance when you look at Chapter 19 about renal diseas you will find a bibliography containing 175 published studies by authors and researchers from around the world. Of those 175 published studies, only 3 were authored by a Hill's or MMA emplpoyee. Many more authors like Chew and Remillard are frequently in opposition to Hill's.
3. Only large industry brands were studied in the book - Eukanuba/Iams, Purina, Hill's, and Nutro.

I think you need to recognize that this book was intended for veterinarians who deal with all the clients who walk in the door. Thus the vast majority of common foods are covered. It would take another
10 pound book to cover the tiny little niche food producers.Nonetheless on pages 1074 - 1082 dozens of pet foods are covered - probably 99% of the foods actually fed to pets. Additionally dealing with specific food producers is not the critical factor in a book of this type, it is designed to provide basic foundational knowledge about small animal clinical nutrition. It is not designed to be a reference book for pet foods, but rather a reference book for nutrition. A veterinarian need not know that brand A has X level of nutrient, s/he needs to know that nutrient X impacts a renal failure animal in some manner. S/he can always find out what level nutrient X is in any given food.
And, on a less factual note (more my opinion) it made people interested in making homemade diets look largely like unintelligent paranoid dolts.

I doubt the authors of the book can help you with this problem. The facts are the facts, and the results of homemade diets are factually problematic. You may not like the facts but the authors of the book cannot account for your enmotional decisions. This is a book of facts and science, not emotionally driven ideas from the fringe lunatic arena based on internet fantasies and a goof ball in Australia.
As a whole, I was unimpressed with the pet food section. I was really looking forward to some unbiased, clinical information on different types of pet diets.

And that is exaclty what you got. I would guess you are dissapointed because you were looking for data to support what cannot be supported in science, but can only be supported by opinions and internet fantasies.
I won't respond to any flaming posts, but if anyone who has/has read this book wants to rationally discuss their views on this reference book, I would be interested to hear (read) your thoughts. K

What I would suggest is that you take some part of the book you disagree with, look at the end of the Chapter for the supporting bibliography materials, review those studies and then see if you can find alternative published studies which support your side of the story. Small animal clinical nutrition is still open to great debate, especially among the Diplomates of the American College of Internal Medicine and American College of Veterinary Nutrition. Often new science uncovers new insights and teaches us new things. Perhaps you can find some published study that is in opposition to SACN IV and we can have an interesting debate.
Well well well, isn't that most interesting? It seems that when I posted this a few weeks ago, Steve Crane called me a liar.
"Beginning in 1987, he served a four year term as Vice President and President of American Association of Veterinary Nutrition. From 1994-2000 Dr. Frey served on the Board of Directors for the Mark Morris Institute, an arm of Hill’s Pet Nutrition which aims to promote nutritional education in small animals."

Lauren

See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Sure, available in the UK.

Joe, is it a major brand over there? Emotion: smile

I don't know, I'm over here. :-)
I just popped the name into Google and a number of UK links popped up.

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck
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