This was actually written by UKC VP Cindy Cook, some one you'd assume was educated.
* MYTH: The " Pit bull" breeds have been selectively bred for the purpose of dog fighting." In fact, the overwhelming majority of breeders is, and has been for decades, selectively breeding the bull terrier breeds as companion and working animals. Dog fighters represent a negligible minority of the fanciers of these breeds. Most dog fighters are not selectively breeding at all and few, if any, of their dogs are even purebred. These people are not educated in the methodology of selecting and fixing particular traits in a breed. They look for big strong dogs that can be made mean enough, usually through abuse and neglect, to fight with other dogs and to menace people.
I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE WHAT I'VE READ. ANYONE WHO TRULY KNOWS THE APBT KNOWS THEY CAN BE DOG AGGRESSIVE AND WANT TO FIGHT DESPITE TRAINING THEM OTHERWISE AND THAT THEY HAVE BEEN SELECTIVLY BRED FOR GAMENESS WHICH WAS TESTED BY FIGHTING THE DOGS AGAINST ONE ANOTHER. IT IS TRUE A LOT OF BREEDER BRED FOR THINGS OTHER THAN GAMENESS, AS DOG FIGHTING IS ILLEGAL NOW AND OTHER USES HAVE BEEN FOUND. THERE ARE IN FACT STILL A LARGE NUMBER OF DOGMEN OUT THERE, JUST FEW PEOPLE KNOW WHO THEY ARE.

"DOG FIGHTERS" AS SHE CALLS THEM SELECTIVLY BREED FOR GAMENESS OTHERWISE THERE WOULDN'T BE CULLING OF CURS, OR THE NEED TO SEE WHICH DOG IS GAME AND THE BEST TO BREED. THEIR DOGS ARE IN FACT THE MOST PURE OF ALL APBTS, AS MIXING THEM WITH CURS WOULD ONLY MAKE THEM CURS AND NOT GAME AT ALL. GAMENESS IS AN EASY TRAIT TO LOOSE AND BREEDING THE DOG WITH A CUR YOU WILL GET DOGS WHO CUR. I HAVE HOWEVER SEEN SO MANY PULL DOGS MIXED WITH CURS ITS UNBELIEVABLE THE MOST POPULAR BEING BANDOGS, AND OTEHRS MIXED WITH CANE CORSO OR BULLMASTIFF AND THESE DOGS ARE REGISTERED AS PURE WHEN THEY ARE NOT.
MANY OF THE OLDER DOGMEN I HAVE MET WHO HAVE BEEN BREEDING FOR YEARS, EVEN GENERATIONS KNOW A LOT ABOUT BREEDING, MORE THEN ANY SHOW BREEDER I'VE TALKED TO. NOT JUST DOGMEN BUT I'VE ALSO FOUND BOTH GREYHOUND AND ESPECIALLY HORSE BREEDERS KNOW A LOT ABOUT BREEDING, SELECTIVE BREEDING AND GENETICS.
SOME OF THE OTHER BREEDERS DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHY REDNOSE DOGS CANNOT HAVE BLACK NOSE PUPS.
"They look for big strong dogs that can be made mean enough, usually through
abuse and neglect, to fight with other dogs and to menace people." IS THAT SO? MOST OF THE ONES I HAVE MET HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN OVER 35LBS. I HAVE MET SOME WHO WERE ALMOST 50LBS BUT THOSE ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN. THEY PREFER SMALLER DOGS FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS. ANY DOG CAN BE MADE MEAN DESPITE SIZE AND ALL APBTS ARE STRONG, THE SMALLER PUREBRED ONES USUALLY WIN MOST WEIGHT PULLED PER BODY POUND AGAINST THE BIG BUR MUTTS. FIGHTING DOGS ARE NO MENACE TO POEPLE.
* MYTH: The " Pit Bull" breeds have been selectively bred to develop a strong fighting instinct and a low level of fighting inhibition, which make these breeds of dogs hazards to humans as well as to other animals. Once again, I must point out the thousands of bull terrier dogs who regularly participate every year without incident in conformation shows, obedience trials, agility trials, weight pulls, and other events sponsored by U.K.C. and other registries.

By the way, a review of the history of these breeds reveals that the 19th century breeders selected dogs that would not attack humans because there were always three people in the pit with the dogs. The dogs had to be willing to be pulled out of the fight by their owner without causing injury to the owner. The worst of the old fighting dogs were NEVER bred or encouraged to attack people. That is a twentieth-century phenomenon that has grown up with the crack epidemic in our cities.

The drug dealers and gamblers who keep "attack" dogs are certainly not wasting their time or energy selectively breeding these dogs. They buy dogs from irresponsible breeders and keep the mean ones.

OK LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT THESE "DOG FIGHTER" KNOW HOW TO SELECTIVLY BREED PEOPLE FRIENDLY DOGS AND THEY DON'T GET BIT BY CULLING MAN BITERS, BUT THEY AREN'T SMART ENOUGH TO BREED GAME DOGS BY ONLY BREEDING THE GAME ONES AND CULLING OUT THE CURS? YEAH THAT REALLY MAKES A LOT OF SENSE, NOT!!!
AND IF THIS IS TRUE WHY WOULD IT MATTER I THOUGHT THESE PEOPLE DON'T BREED PURE DOGS, SO THEIR DOGS AREN'T APBTS ANYWAY? THEY ARE JUST BIG, STRONG DOGS MADE MEAN AND A MENACE TO PEOPLE, HMM CONTRADICTORY!

ITS NOT JUST THUGS IN INNER CITIES ITS LOW LIVES & BYBS EVERYWHERE, BELIEVE ME I HAVE NEIGHBORS LIKE THIS WITH DIFFERENT BREEDS APBTS, ROTTS, SHEPHERDS AND EVEN MIXES OF THESE BREEDS, NOW THEY ARE EVEN TRYING TO HIT THE RARE BREEDS, PRESAS AND CORSOS MAINLY(to make more money b/c they are rare and have more powerful guard dogs). IF THOSE BREEDERS AREN'T TOO CAREFUL THERE BREED MAY END UP IN THE SAME LIGHT AS THE PIT BULL. NOT TOO MENTION JUST PLAIN UNEDUCATED/IRRESPONSIBLE OWNERS THAT NEVER TRAIN OR SOCIALIZE THERE DOGS AND LET THEM ROAM THE NEIGHBORHOOD FREELY.
* MYTH: The " Pit Bull" breeds have a tendency to attack even those persons that exhibit no provocative behavior. Dog attacks have become such media events that virtually every reported dog bite is transformed into an unprovoked attack on an innocent child by a semi-mythical monster dog, the dreaded " Pit Bull." Most are UNPROVOKED and by breeds other than the Bull Terrier breeds.

VERY TRUE I HAVE SEEN DOZENS OF CASES WHERE SOMEONE WAS BIT BY A BREED OTHER THAN A PIT BULL AND YET PEOPLE CLAIM IT WAS A PIT BULL. ON THE OTHER HAND THEY USUALLY ARE UNPROVOKED, AT LEAST MOST OF THE ONES I HAVE SEEN ARE. SOME YES WERE PROVOKED OTHERS A CHILD IS ACTING IN A NORMAL FASHION AND MAY NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN MESSING WITH THE DOG IN ANYWAY. EITHER WAY THE CHILD SHOULDN'T BE ATTACKED BECAUSE OF A STUPID DOG OWNER. I THINK THAT OWNERS SHOULD RECIEVE SERIOUS PRISON TIME AND FINES WHEN THEIR DOGS HAVE BEEN BITING PEOPLE AND FINALLY ATTACK/KILL.

* MYTH: The " Pit Bull" breeds have a tendency to fight to the death and never quit a fight once engaged, which results in more severe injuries than those inflicted by other breeds. It is the nature of animals to avoid fights where possible, to fight only as long as is necessary, and to quit when beaten or when the opponent concedes.
FIRST OFF PIT BULLS ARE NOT OTHER DOGS. THEY HAVE BEEN BREED FOR A CERTAIN REASON AND THAT WAS DOG FIGHTING AND BULL BAITING. ITS VERY TRUE, LET ME STATE THAT AGAIN VERY TRUE THAT ONCE THEY ARE ENGAGED IN COMBAT THEY ARE NOT LIKELY TO STOP WITHOUT INFLICTING SERIOUS INJURY OR KILLING THE OTHER DOG. THAT IS WHY IT IS SO VERY IMPORTANT NOT TO LEAVE A PIT UNSUPERVISED WITH ANOTHER DOG JUST INCASE A FIGHT WERE TO HAPPEN. NOW BY ALL MEANS NO NOT MANY WILL FIGHT ANOTHER BULLDOG TO THE DEATH AND NOT QUIT.

WHAT USUALLY HAPPENS IN THESE SITUATIONS WHERE TWO PITS HAVE FOUGHT IS ONE DID QUIT FIGHTING PROBABLY NOT TOO LONG INTO THE FIGHT AND FOR THAT FACT WAS KILLED, THEN YOU COME HOME AND YOUR PIT BULL IS WAITING HAPPY FOR YOU AFTER FINISHING OFF THE OTHER DOG BECAUSE IT QUIT. THIS CAN BE AVOIDED BY KEEPING THEM SEPERATE WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND. SO EVEN IF THE "OPPONENT" "CONCEDES" THE OTHER DOG MAY NOT QUIT UNTIL IT IS TOO LATE.
IF DOGS FOUGHT TO THE DEATH YOU WOULDN'T SEE CHAMPION FIGHTING DOGS WHO CAN WIN 7,8 OR + MATCHES AND NEVER BECOME A GRAND CHAMP BECAUSE ONCE A DOG LOOSES A MATCH ITS NOT ELIGIBLE FOR GR CH TITLE. NO MATTER HOW MANY MORE TIMES ITS MATCHED AND WINS, DUH!!
"Dog fighting created unnatural situations where dogs were not allowed to
concede or to flee. Naturally, they fought to the death where they had no alternative. Remember, too, these were artificially stimulated attacks on other dogs not attacks on persons."
LOL, GET SOME EDUCATION. DOGS WERE VERY MUCH ALLOWED TO BOTH CONCEED AND FLEE. THAT IS HOW YOU GET LOSERS HUN, OR CURS WHICH EVER YOU PREFER. A DOG CONCEEDS WHEN IT 1. STANDS THE SCRATCH 2. QUITS FIGHTING AND REFUSES TO FIGHT BACK, AND AGAIN WONT SCRATCH WHEN TAKEN TO THE LINE. 3. JUMPS THE PIT WALLS IN EXCAPE.

4. SOME DOGS ARE UNABLE TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT OR HAVE TAKEN A LOT OFDAMGE. THESE DOGS ARE PICKED UP BY THEIR OWNERS IN ORDER TO SAVE THEIR LIVES. THEY SILL LOOSE THE MATCH BUT AT LEAST YOU STILL HAVE YOUR DOG. THE RISK OF THE DOG BEING KILLED OUTWAYS THE FACT THAT IT WILL BE LOOSING THE MATCH.
HASN'T THIS PERSON TAKEN ANYTIME TO LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT THE BREED. THESE DOGS WERE NEVER FOUGHT TO THE DEATH. THAT WASN'T THE POINT. A DOG WOULD MOST LIKELY QUIT BEFORE THAT AND THE OTHER DOG WOULD BE THE WINNER OR ONE WOULD BE PICKED UP BY ITS HANDLER SO IT WOULDN'T BE KILLED.
LETS ALSO REMEMBER THAT THEY WERE ONLY STIMULATED BY SEEING THE OTHER DOG IN THE PIT, BECAUSE QUITE FRANKLY THEY ENJOYED IT. SOME DOGS GO HOG NUTS WHEN THEY KNOW THEIR GOING TO A MATCH. NO ENCOURAGING IN ANYWAY, SHAPE OR FORM. I'VE EVEN SEEN DOGS WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN IN A FIGHT AND DISCOURAGED FROM IT GO WILD WHEN THEY SEE ANOTHER DOG WHINING AND SCREAMING, GETTING MORE FUSTRATED BECAUSE THEY AREN'T ALLOWED TO DO SO. WHEN A DOG DIDN'T SCRATCH IT WASN'T FORCED TO FIGHT ANY LONGER, THE MATCH WAS OVER.JUST LET YOURSELF BE ENLIGHTENED AND LEARN THE TRUTH. THE TRUTH CAN SAVE LIVES AND IS ALWAYS WORTH LETTING PEOPLE KNOW. WHY HIDE OR TRY TO DENY THE TRUTH OF THE BREED. I THOUGHT THAT IS WAS BREEDERS/OWNERS RESPONSIBILITY TO LET OTHERS KNOW THE TRUTH? EVEN THOUGH MOST DON'T AGREE WITH DOG FIGHTING IT SHOULD STILL BE UNDERSTOOD THAT IT IS VERY MUCH A PART OF THE BREED'S HISTORY AND ACCOUNTS FOR SOME OF ITS CHARACTARISTICS.

SAYING DOG FIGHTING HAS HAD NO AFFECT ON THESE DOGS IS LIKE SAYING BLOODHOUNDS DON'T HAVE A NATURAL TENDENCY TO TRACK, OR SHEPHERDS TO HEARD, WHICH OF COURSE THEY DO I HAVE OWNED SHEPHERD AND ONE THING THEY LOVE IS HERDING WHETHER THEY ARE A VETERAN OR THIS IS THEIR FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH A SHEEP. THEY KNOW WHAT TO DO AND JUST NEED A LITTLE DIRECTION.
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My take was that the author is referring to street dog fighters/breeders, not "dogmen." If that is the case then she pretty much hit the nail on the head although the "abuse" part I'd question. By neglect I assume she's talking of the people who keep their dogs on heavy chains, tied to trees or dog houses...not indoor pets.

Tara
My take was that the author is referring to street dog fighters/breeders, not "dogmen." If that is the case then she pretty much hit the nail onthe head

i tend to agree with you. i think the OP was specifically looking for things to rant about, based on the fact that he went off on several tangents not even mentioned in Ms. Cook's writings.
you'll find that this is very common in the pit bull world. there seem to be four major groups of pit bull enthusiasts/owners.

first, like the OP, the ones who glorify "dogmen", and constantly go on about the past. they tend to believe there is only one way to "game test" a dog, and can repeat fights for you, blow by blow, as "historical accounts", of course. they care a lot about bloodlines and think any mixed dog or non ADBA papered dog is a cur or a mongrel. they do seem to care a lot about breeding and often have very organized and well researched breeding programs. while their dogs are often chained in a yard, they're usually well fed and well exercised.second, is the pit thug. they see snarling pit bulls on chains in rap videos and want one of their own. they may try to fight them on street corners, matching them against other breeds, or dogs of different sizes and experience. they breed indiscriminately, with no regard for conformation or even keeping the breed pure. they tend to prize bigger dogs and dogs with big heads. these are they guys who leave a loosing dog on the sidewalk to die, rather than nurse it back to health or kill it humanely.

they think that certain colors of dog make better fighters. they're responsible for most of the current bad press pit bulls get at the moment. and they're the ones Ms. Cook was talking about in the first couple of paragraphs. these are the dog fighters that the "dogmen" like to pretend don't exist. they use pit bulls as accessories (canine bling bling, if you will). some of these folks honestly love their dogs and don't fight them, but love the tough image.

unfortunately, they seem to be the most likely to "accidentally" breed their dogs.
next is the opposite extreme, the pet bull owner. these folks tend to get a pit bull before they know much about the breed. they keep them inside as well loved house pets, and often obtain their dogs from rescues and shelters. they abhor all things fight related, and often have no interest in the breed's history. they think owning a break stick makes you an automatic dog fighter, and are wary of weight pull, because it seems cruel. they'd probably be against BSL if they knew what it was, but probably have never heard of it. they tell everyone how wonderful their dogs are, and probably invite trouble by letting their dogs and young children romp unsupervised. "but he was such a sweet dog!"last is the middle ground. folks who love their pet bulls, but also understand their past, and how that affects their present behavior, but without the need to glorify that past. they're crusaders against BSL and unfair insurance and housing practices. they can see the difference between a "dogman" and a pit thug, without the need to feel that one is any better than the other. they work with shelters and rescue, and try to educate others on the breed with every chance they get.

most would not breed their own dogs, but may not be opposed to a well bred dog for conformation or working purposes. they own break sticks and know how much fun a spring pole can be. they train their dogs well, and get them involved in all sorts of activities, agility, weight pull, therapy, you name it. they know that every dog should be a perfect example of the breed.

i aspire to make it into that last group. i definitely started as more of a pet bull owner, but i think i'm much more middle ground these days.

yeah, this is way simplified, but i think it's pretty accurate.

-kelly
yeah, this is way simplified, but i think it's pretty accurate.

Yep- you're fairly accurate from what I've seen.
Some things I think you missed, though:
1. A lot of owners in the "thug" category aren't interested so much in dogaggression, as in wanting a mean dog to intimidate humans with. Some of them have deliberately bred for human aggression- including doing things like crossing in Chows- some "train" to encourage it.
2. A lot of "pet bull" owners are convinced that the breed's fightinghistory is myth or hyperbole, and/or believe that simply letting a Pit play with other dogs is enough to prevent the dog ever showing dog-dog aggression. "It's all in how you raise them" is their mantra, followed by "S/he has never done THAT before!" when the dog starts going after other dogs as it hits adolescence.3. There's crossover between the types of owners. For a perfect example,the whack-job that we had to call the cops on several times last summer. He fits your first category, because he's very well versed in the history of the breed, and displays most of the characteristics you list; let him get talking to you, and he'll go on and on about the breed's history (I think he's got at least one of the Stratton books memorized). But he also fits category two, since he gets his jollies by taking his large intact male Pit to parks where people let their dogs offlead.

He deliberately hangs near groups of dogs playing, lets other dogs approach, then lets his dog attack them; he laughs when people protest, and smugly tells them they can't touch him, legally, because his dog is leashed. Not to mention that he boasts to women about his dog's sexual prowess, and on one occasion unleashed the dog & encouraged it to try to mate* with a spayed female. When the dog's owner protested, he said "You know your dog wants it as much as mine does."
*Yes, the Pit actually attempted the act- the female was taken to the vet, and had bruising and tears around the vaginal area.
Sorry if this may have offended anyone or they didn't agree with it. I wasn't merely "going on a rant" I was stating my opinion/disagreements with what the other said. I may have stated some of my opinion on things other than what was in Cook's writing but they were still relevant.
I never set out to "glorify dogmen" I call it how i see it. I never really got into matching dogs spefically, I only went off some that was already mentioned.
Most breeders should care about bloodlines regardless of what they are breeding for. Any mixed dog IS a CUR if you didn't know, any dog other than a pit bull is a cur. If you mix it with a pit its still a cur and a mongrel.
I think the ADBA is a JOKE if you need to know. Just go to one of their shows sometime, it won't be but a minute before you see a huge cur mixed pull dog.
A lot of dogmen don't respect the ADBA too much. Many rather have non papered dogs all together. There are some worthwhile registries out there Sporting Dog Registry is a good one and one I'll soon be swithing over to it. There are a lot more regs. out there better than the ADBA.
I don't think you can make generalized assumptions about people. At least not about me, you don't know me.
I'm sure there are different catagories of people who own these dogs, obviously as with anything else.
There are the show fanciers who breed based on dogs looks and conformation. And of course the pull dog people to, some do both show and pull in the AADR, ADBA, ect. Then there are those who have UKC reg. dogs and only paricipate in the conformation aspect. Although some of the UCK people find "work" for their dogs too.
I don't think you can make generalized assumptions about people. At least not about me, you don't know me. I'm ... dogs and only paricipate in the conformation aspect. Although some of the UCK people find "work" for their dogs too.

hey, i said it was the simplified version. :-) but you're right, i forgot about the conformation folks. i have a hard time believing anyone breeds pit bulls on purpose these days, just based on how many of them die in shelters each day.
-kelly
When the ancient war dogs did battle on 4 Nov 2003 14:21:41 -0800, Candy (Email Removed) (CPit Dogs) did speak the following bit of wisdom:
...any dog other than a pit bull is a cur.[/nq]^^
My English Setter, White Shepherd and German Shepherd Dog heartily and completely disagree and disapprove of the above statement!

*~ *~ *~
Karen C.
Spammers be damned! I can't be emailed from this account! So there...

"You have no power here!
...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!"
Okay Im sorry if your DOGS happen to disagree with me thats just too bad, but what do they know? How high were there IQ scores?

A Cur is difined as

1. A cowardly person
2. Any breed of dog other than that of the American Pit Bull Terrier
3. Any APBT who curs i.e. Quits in a fight, Stands the line, jumps thepit, ect
If they would like a demonstration bring them over with anyone of my bulldogs and watch the English Setter, White Sheperd and GSD cur as quick as they can. LOL J/K that would be heartless and cruel as a cur cannot do battle with an APBT nor were they ment to. Those 3 breeds of dogs were not bred for dog fighting and no one should expect them to. They have there own purposes in this world.
...any dog other than a pit bull is a cur.

^^
Okay Im sorry if your DOGS happen to disagree with me thats just too bad, but what do they know? ... Pit Bull Terrier 3. Any APBT who curs i.e. Quits in a fight, Stands the line, jumps the pit, ect

not in my dictionary.
Main Entry: cur
Pronunciation: 'k&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, short for curdogge, from (assumed) Middle English curren to growl (perhaps from Old Norse kurra to grumble) + Middle English dogge dog
Date: 13th century

1 : a mongrel or inferior dog
2 : a surly or cowardly fellow

i think you're assuming that all other breeds are inferior to the APBT. while i agree in spirit ;-), it's a pretty silly generalization to make. if you have a greyhound and a pit bull trying to catch a rabbit, the pit bull is going to be the cur. if you have a BC and a pit bull trying to herd sheep, the pit bull is going to be the cur. if you have a pit bull and a poodle trying to catch a bull by the nose and hold it, the poodle will be the cur.
it's all a matter of perspective.
-kelly
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