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Apparently this dog's only issue is around food? It would be a major kink in your lifestyle to work around that if you needed to?

I believe that *is* what Lynne just said.
(not that you would necessarily need to once he's trained - it depends)

That seems to be the $64K question. Maybe you could answer it for her, instead of telling her what a horrible person she is for having second thoughts?
All I can think is that it is a good thing our dogs don't expect us to be as "perfect" as humans frequently expect them to be. BroomSandy

I don't think Lynne is expecting perfection. She's taking a good, hard look at what behaviors are necessary for her lifestyle, and which behaviors are deal breakers. I wish more people had the self-awareness to do that. I also think it's okay to come to the conclusion that a particular dog is not the right dog for you.

Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
That seems to be the $64K question. Maybe you could answer it for her, instead of telling her what a horrible person she is for having second thoughts?[/nq]Well, if I was there, maybe I could. If you were there, maybe you could. That's why she needs in-person help. ASAP. Going by what she's said about the dog, he sounds like he really wants to cooperate and is probably quite trainable. But honestly - she goes rock climbing with her buddies. Another person is sharing pizza with his dog. How hard is it to call your dog over, give him something to do (once he has a repetroire of incompatible behaviors) besides mug the other dog.

Does that really put a kink in your lifestyle? Is that REALLY a deal breaker? This dog doesn't sound like he's attacking dogs on sight. He's being put in situations he doesn't know how to handle to the human's satisfaction. Even if he'd still LIKE to take food away from other dogs, if you know that, you know what situations are likely to be problematic, you know what he looks like when he's thinking about it and you've taught a few basic behaviors, you can prevent it by asking for something else..
All I can think is that it is a good ... as "perfect" as humans frequently expect them to be. BroomSandy

I don't think Lynne is expecting perfection. She's taking a good, hard look at what behaviors are necessary for her ... also think it's okay to come to the conclusion that a particular dog is not the right dog for you.[/nq]And I frequently wish people would consider these things BEFORE they get a dog, and, if they don't have enough experience with integrating a young adult dog into a household, get good professional advice BEFORE they bring the dog home. The fact is, many dogs have issues that need work. Particularly adult rescues (especially young males) generally need training to fit into a household. Don't get me wrong, rescue dogs are frequently diamonds in the rough.

But, there IS that "in the rough" thing. They need polishing. It's certainly okay to come to the conclusion that a particular dog is not right for you. But it's also realistic to understand when maybe you shouldn't be looking at getting a dog at all, or at least you should be realistic about the dog you're getting. Don't go to rescue if you're not willing to work around a little baggage. I didn't come into this to bash Lynne. In fact, I started out trying to give her the best advice I could.

I still am. But I'm just one of those awful misanthropes whose focus is on the dog. I see a dog who's getting a bad rap here. And I see it being all about sympathy for the human. Not much for the dog. And I don't think Lynne means to, but every incident has pointed to the fact that she's subconsciously sabotaging him - pulling food out of his mouth, after being told to take it slow and work on trading skills, feeding the dogs side by side after being advised by several people to separate them when food is involved.

That sort of thing. And these mistakes may very well end up costing this dog his life. So, no, I don't think it's all about Lynne. I feel bad for her that things aren't going smoothly. But I think a lot of the lack of smoothness has been bad human choices. And I feel REALLY bad for Briar. Sandy in OK
And I frequently wish people would consider these things BEFORE they get a dog,

Even if people consider potential drawbacks or problems, they won't know how well prepared they are until they've got the dog and encounter a problem. Some "problems" (shedding, barking, housebreaking) are pretty easy to foresee and prepare to address. Others may blindside you no matter how much experience you have or preparation you make.

In many cases, you won't know what you don't know until you need to know it. Y'know?
But I'm just one of those awful misanthropes whose focus is on the dog.

Yeah, like that's a distinguishing characteristic around here.
I see a dog who's getting a bad rap here. And I see it being all about sympathy for the human. Not much for the dog.

Oh, ***. It's always about the dog. But where the situation stands right now, Briar's survival depends on Lynne getting useful, hands-on help. Not on the shelter, not on what might have been the triggers, not how how well or poorly he was handled or set up (except to prevent the same thing happening again).
What Briar did was within normal "dog behavior" parameters, but it's not behavior that every dog displays under those circumstances. Does he deserve to die for it? No. Does it make him less adoptable? Yep.
And I frequently wish people would consider these things BEFORE they get a dog,

She did. To the best of her ability and onformation at the time, and FAR moreso than the vast majority of people ever do, she put time and effort into figuring out what kind of dog she could best handle in her household.
She did a better job then many of the JQPs who show up here, and yet all you can do is beat her down. I guess you only reserve your all positive teaching methods for dogs. People..well, its ok to kick them in the teeth at the early signe of not doing exactly what you think they should?
and, if they don't have enough experience with integrating a young adult dog into a household, get good professional advice BEFORE they bring the dog home.

Almost no one does that. NO ONE. Most people (you and I included) simply don't know what we don't know until we find out what information we're lacking. She found out. And once she found out, she went about trying to fix that.
The fact is, many dogs have issues that need work.

I don't think that's news to the majority of the people here you're preaching at.
Particularly adult rescues (especially young males) generally need training to fit into a household. Don't get me wrong, rescue dogs ... be looking at getting a dog at all, or at least you should be realistic about the dog you're getting.

As far as I can see, she's pretty busy coming to terms with that very reality right now...and fairly quickly compared to most folks.

But be sure an beat her up some more for opening her eyes. Is your timing with corrections that fine tuned with dogs as well?
Don't go to rescue if you're not willing to work around a little baggage. I didn't come into this to bash Lynne. In fact, I started out trying to give her the best advice I could. I still am.

I don't recall any advioce coming from you except that she might be responsible for her dog's impending death and should not get another dog.
Honestly, that wasn't couched as advice at all. Or at least not the kind of advice that was in any way helpful given the situation.
But I'm just one of those awful misanthropes whose focus is on the dog.

How condescending. Everyone here who has been giving her actual handling advice has kept the focus on the dog. You're main focus, ironically, has merely been to beat up the owner. I have a difficult time seeing how you insulting Lynne focuses on the dog at all.
I see a dog who's getting a bad rap here.

Not by anyone here. So I'm wondering where you got that. Most here are focused on the fact that this is likely a dog who is having trouble adjusting and isn't being given proper guidance. Where is the "bad rap" in that? Pretending you're the only advocate this dog has is not only arrogant, but completely untrue.
And I see it being all about sympathy for the human. Not much for the dog.

Again, you must be reading an entirely different newsgroup than the rest of us.
Some people are capable of having sympathy for BOTH the human AND the dog. Most here are coming from that perspective. Its not all that helpful to either dog or human to only reserve compassion for one end of the equation anyway. That's where a great number of rescues screw up.
And I don't think Lynne means to, but every incident has pointed to the fact that she's subconsciously sabotaging him ... trading skills, feeding thedogs side by side after being advised by several people to separate them when food is involved.

She's gottwen a LOT of advice. Not all of it consistant, but all of it from anonymous people on the internet. Is it that surprising that she'd not only pick the advice that matches what she envisions, but that she wouldn't do it all that well right off the bat?
Of course, that MUST mean she is sabotaging the dog. There's simply no other, less sinister explanation.
That sort of thing. And these mistakes may very well end up costing this dog his life. So, no, I ... I think a lot of the lack of smoothness has been bad human choices.And I feel REALLY bad for Briar.

You're not the only one.
But you seem to be the only one that thinks beating up the owner while she's in the middle of trying to engage in fixing the problem does a damned thing besides work your own ego.
Tara
She found out. And once she found out, she went about trying to
fix that.

Really? It seems to me like she's trying to decide whether having to do a bit of management is a big enough inconvenience to be a "deal-breaker" It sort of seems like she's been puzzling about "deal-breakers" since she got the dog. Considering that this is the second dog she's been dissatisfied with it does make one wonder. Frequently dogs who aren't terribly predatory will chase a cat (especially one that fizzes up and runs) and frequently it is a very workable issue.
As far as I can see, she's pretty busy coming to terms with that very reality right now...and fairly quickly compared to most folks.

yes, as she keeps saying, hindsight is 20/20
But be sure an beat her up some more for opening her eyes. Is your timing with corrections that fine tuned with dogs as well?

She's not a dog, and I'm not trying to "train" her. One nice thing about how I train is that I don't have to worry much about timing corrections - just reinforcement. However, I'm not seeing much clickable behavior here either. I guess I could ignore "attention seeking" drama. But as long as she's getting plenty from elsewhere that wouldn't help. I see giving too much sympathy and support in this situation (as it's developed over the past couple of days) as enabling. And I don't think that's useful. I do think that sometimes telling it like it is works with humans. And, sometimes not.
I don't recall any advioce coming from you except that she might be responsible for her dog's impending death and should not get another dog.

Well, then. All I can say is that I'm not the person with the "selective reading" issue.
Again, you must be reading an entirely different newsgroup than the rest of us.

And you must be reading a different one than I posted advice to.

She got very consistent advice about separating the dogs when food was in the picture. If she's not interested in advice from the anonymous people on the internet, why ask for it? And picking out advice which matches what you are envisioning is only useful if you are on the right track to begin with.
Of course, that MUST mean she is sabotaging the dog. There's simply no other, less sinister explanation.

Well, there have been the "oh, silly me! I know I shouldn't have done this but . . ." posts. Frequently.
Others may blindside you no matter how much experience you have or preparation you make.

Pretty much. It is easier to know about the dog's problems if it's past history is known, and it is fostered in someone's home where certain problems are likely to be noticed, even then, some thing may be situations unique to the new home and therefore, uncharted territory.

My friend's poop eating foster actually had someone interested in him, although they found out first hand about his penchant for poop. It wasn't going to be a problem for them, because they live in a condo, and have to walk him and clean up after him anyway. The dealbreaker was that they have cats, and while he wasn't foaming at his mouth trying to get to them, he was sufficiently interested in them that they did not think he would work out. They wanted a dog who would basically move in and show no interest in cats, and were unwilling to do whatever it takes to get the dog used to cats (and vice versa; two are 8 year old cats that have never lived with dogs before).

Suja
My friend's poop eating foster actually had someone interested in him, although they found out first hand about his penchant for poop.

How has this dog's housebreaking issues been going? Is he still pooping in the house?
Was thinking about this dog the other day, wondering how he was adjusting.

Tara
How has this dog's housebreaking issues been going? Is he still pooping in the house?

He went about 5 days without an accident, had one (foster's fault), and then has gone another couple without one. A little consistency goes a long way, I guess.
Was thinking about this dog the other day, wondering how he was adjusting.

He is getting more mobile every day, appears to have lost a little weight, and is doing fine with the house training. For a while there, he was trying to bulldoze his way through baby gates to try to get to the other dogs' food, but seems to have calmed down about it a bit; at least he can be called off. The fosters' other dogs are seriously stressed about him, but that should get a little better over time. The poop eating is still a serious issue, and to be perfectly honest, I don't see any change WRT that behavior.
Suja
How has this dog's housebreaking issues been going? Is he still pooping in the house?

He went about 5 days without an accident, had one (foster's fault), and then has gone another couple without one. A little consistency goes a long way, I guess.

AWESOME!!
What finally did the trick on that one? Was it simply more close supervision and getting him out more often?
Was thinking about this dog the other day, wondering how he was adjusting.

He is getting more mobile every day, appears to have lost a little weight, and is doing fine with the ... poop eating is still a serious issue, and to be perfectly honest, I don't see any change WRT that behavior.

Glad he's getting better physically.
No, obsessive coprophagia isn't usually something that gets better without some serious aversives. Which is sad. I'm glad you were able to find people who were even willing to entertain the thought..at least that's encouraging!
Tara
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