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Good explanation. I think in my case I need to teach stand as a position. I have taught my shepherd the "stand" command, but I don't really use it as a position of importance, like sit or down. I usually use it when I am grooming her or when she is being examined. Integrating "stand" into her daily training routine would probably help clear up the confusion, for both dog and handler. thanks
Work on the dog holding a stand separately

Actually, what Scott's doing - if I understand him correctly- is saying "stay" while the dog is MOVING, and wanting her to stop, stand, and stay.

And, for me at least, that is an entirely different bag o' tricks. When I want a moving stop/drop (what would that be called?), I use a term I use in herding, "Lie Down". Bodhi knows that a Lie Down is to drop on spot and wait for the signal/okay to move again. I suppose it would be akin to the Drop in Utility? Shelly & The Boys
I'm a little confused because it sounds like you're equating Stay with Stand. She should be able to hold any ... very common human training errors: - not consistently using a release word, so the dog learns to break the stay

Now I am confused.Sorry for being late but hte thread interested me vey much.
What does 'release word' mean in this context?
Do you have one word that use explicitly to release a dog? If so, what is this word(command) and what dog supposed to do?

My command list includes 4 commands that would break 'stay':
1) Heel (I am next to dog start movingor standing at a distance face or back to dog)

2) Come (at distance face to dog)
3) Free (means free to play with me, use while training)
4) Go walk (means go whenever you like and do whatever you like)

I rarely use last 2 (actually releasing words) to break stay but rather first 2.
- pushing time or distance beyond the dog's capability too fast - not returning to the dog when initially training; ... - initially putting the dog into position in front of you instead of at heel position - contradictory hand signals

I show her my index finger on 'stay' (rather instinctively).

The same confusion on release hand signals justs usual signals : one for 'heel' and another for 'come'.
Do not have special signal for 'go walk' - well some waving of hand. On 'free' I just start bouncing and prancing as she does.
- harsh voice "Stay" that stresses the dog - leaving the dog on your left leg, pulling her out of position

Our trainer was very demanding on this issue.
Actually,Kappa does not move if I leave her on right leg 'stay' unsaid.

I also think that 'stay' could be omitted at the moment dog taught not to break 'sit', 'stand', 'lay down' and 'wait'('stop').

I still use it as reinforcement if I see that she is ready to break loose. (not nesessarily at the begining of 'stay').
hth Lynn K.

I saved your informative previous message ('4 different scenarios'). Please help me make my 'stay' complete, Lynn.
Nick(Chicha).
I'm a little confused because it sounds like you're equating ... release word, so the dog learns to break the stay

Now I am confused.Sorry for being late but hte thread interested me vey much. What does 'release word' mean in ... word that use explicitly to release a dog? If so, what is this word(command) and what dog supposed to do?[/nq]I'm not Lynn, but a release word is a word that is used to release a dog from any command. For example, many trainers use the word "okay." The dog is taught that if commanded to sit, it must sit until the handler says "okay," at which time it may break the sit. Same for down. It must stay on down until the handler says "okay." I don't recommend using "okay" as the release word for most people since they say that word all the time without realizing it and you don't want to release your dog without meaning to or cause confusion when you say okay but your body language is telling the dog something different.

It is very useful, and from everything I have seen, universal among good trainers, to have some release word, though, to let the dog know when it is free to stop doing what it was commanded to do and so that you can teach a dog that a command like sit means to keep doing it until formally released instead of the dog doing it until it feels like doing something else or only staying in position if told to stay, etc.

Paula
"France is in the abstract. Remember, we agreed the entire EU belongs in the abstract? Why do you keep trying to drag it into NATO?" Bret Ripley
What does 'release word' mean in this context?

It's simply a cue word to tell the dog that they no longer have to hold the position (or can move again after a Wait or can leave their bed or rug after being sent to it, etc.) You don't always want to give another formal command, so the release ends the prior command without giving another command. You're really doing that with your Free and Go Walk. I happen to use Free.
I rarely use last 2 (actually releasing words) to break stay but rather first 2.

Think about daily situations like putting the dog in a sit because you're moving boxes through the front door or a down while guests are entering or mealtime or a Wait coming out of the car while you mess with your keys and groceries. You aren't always going to want to give a Come or Heel to release that dog, hence the release word.
Actually,Kappa does not move if I leave her on right leg 'stay' unsaid.

Yep. Dogs key heel position off our left legs, so they quickly learn to watch that leg for movement. I use that in teaching both the release word and stay. From the 1st sit and down instruction I have students step forward with the left leg, give the release word and praise/reward. I start Stay with a pivot away from the dog's side moving only the right leg, then gradually increasing time and distance. Also always returning to the dog's side and releasing in the early stages, so that you're rewarding the stay, not a subsequent come or heel.
I also think that 'stay' could be omitted at the moment dog taught not to break 'sit', 'stand', 'lay down' and 'wait'('stop'). I still use it as reinforcement if I see that she is ready to break loose.

Agreed. Stay is really for the humans, not the dogs, if they are started off right. What's interesting is that I'm hearing very few obedience competitors tell their dogs to Stay when they leave them for long Sits & Downs in the ring these days. Most people are starting to tell their dogs Good Sit or Good Down as they leave them.

Lynn K.
What does 'release word' mean in this context? Do you have one word that use explicitly to release a dog? ... to play with me, use while training) 4) Go walk (means go whenever you like and do whatever you like)

Both your "free" and your "go walk" are release commands. I use "all done" as my general-purpose release command; it releases the dogs from a stay or wait, gives permission to go through a door or get out of the car, signals that a training session is over, etc.