hey all, i'm back for a bit (been overworked at the new job)... Lola and Manu both hit 3 over the weekend, and both are beginning to calm down and grow up into real dogs. mostly. :-)
we had a little incident yesterday and i'd love some feedback from the group on what to do.Yesterday when my dog walker was out with the dogs, he ran into a little problem. A tiny dog (he didn't specify breed) came running out of no where, off leash, and started barking and growling at Manu. It got right in his face. Manu picked up the dog in his mouth. He let it go with a "drop it" as the owner came running out. The woman checked her dog over, no blood, no punctures. I'm pretty sure Manu was telling the dog off in his own completely inappropriate way.

The woman did not feel the need to exchange info, and felt that it was entirely her fault for letting her dog out without a leash. Sounds like the best possible outcome of a potentially icky situation, though i wish the dog walker had insisted on getting info, as i'd like to check in with the woman personally.
Problem is what happens next?
Walker wants to muzzle Manu for walks. I see pro and con with this. Pro is that if a cat or small dog runs out into the street, Manu can't do damage to them. Con is that based on his breed, people are already afraid of him, and this will not make him more popular in the neighborhood.

now, i have no problem controlling Manu on-leash, even around offleash dogs. He wears a prong collar on walks and is sensitive to a leash pop. He understands "leave it", "sit", "down" and "stay". Obviously he can't eat a small dog if he's in a down stay. He doesn't eat the cat at the vet, no matter how badly he may want to. But what if this does happen again? Yes, it's the other party's fault, but I'd feel guilty as hell if Manu hurt anyone's pet, and the fact of his breed would probably get him put down regardless of fault.
Does my dog really need to be muzzled? I'm extremely torn about this. I know he's a big baby, and I don't want to scare the neighbors. But what about roaming cats and small dogs? I do live in a rural area, with coyotes, bobcats, and large birds of prey, so I guess those owners are taking more chances than with my dog. but still, the guilt.
sigh
Maybe I should fire the dog walker and find someone who can actually control my dog.
Opinions?
-kelly
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hey all, i'm back for a bit (been overworked at the new job)...

hi!
Lola and Manu both hit 3 over the weekend, and both are beginning to calm down and grow up into real dogs. mostly. :-)

oh no!
Maybe I should fire the dog walker and find someone who can actually control my dog.

that would be item #1 on my list.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 7/10/05)
...Problem is what happens next? Walker wants to muzzle Manu for walks. I see pro and con with this. Pro ... neighborhood. ... sigh Maybe I should fire the dog walker and find someone who can actually control my dog. Opinions?

No Muzzle. It sounds like you have a wonderful dog. Manu deserves a treat, not a penalty. And you need to get over your guilt issue.

When Nightbear, black Chow Chow {R.I.P.} was a puppy, the neighbor's JRT would get loose and run the 200 feet, often dragging his flex leash, barking and trying to bite Nightbear. I defended Nightbear, until he was about five months old. One day, after repelling the JRT, I said to Nightbear, "Next time, I'll let you meet him (the JRT). And I did just that.
Their first encounter didn't convince the JRT. Their second encounter resulted in a slight injury for the JRT. His owner came and asked what happened. I replied, "Your dog came down here and started something he couldn't finish."
Afterwards, my neighbors secured the JRT better, brought Nightbear some rawhide treats and apologized. This was an uncomfortable situation, but I didn't feel any guilt. Nightbear was always on a leash and we were never in their territory.
I urge you to not muzzle your dog. And yes, a more competent walker might be in order.
When I die, I want to go where dogs go!
Yesterday when my dog walker was out with the dogs, he ran into a little problem. A tiny dog (he ... i wish the dog walker had insisted on getting info, as i'd like to check in with the woman personally.

Your dog was provoked by an aggressive animal which was illegally allowed to run around off it's leash, which as far as I know is not sufficient legal cause for any city to order your dog put down. The small size of the aggressor dog would have no bearing on the matter, as nobody expects dogs to be chivalrous. I don't think you need a muzzle, but I recommend you consider what might happen if next time, lets say, some kid without warning, runs up to your dog from out of nowhere and maybe even tries to pet him. Would Manu be OK with that? As a practical matter, one should try to anticipate that when one is out in public one is bound to run into stupid people who don't know anything about how to treat dogs.
- Logic316
"No taxation without respiration."
Rep. Bob Schaffer, R-Colorado, on repeal of the death tax.
hey all, i'm back for a bit (been overworked at the new job)... Lola and

He let it go with a "drop it" as
the owner came running out. The woman checked her dog over, no blood, no Maybe I should fire the dog walker and find someone who can actually control my dog.

How much more control do you expect? He obviously listened and did as he was asked, and it was certainly not the dog walker's fault that the other dog ran into his mouth! I would give your dog walker a bonus!

As for muzzling him - I wouldn't, so long as he is totally people friendly and proper care is taken to avoid any incidence where he might be able to 'eat' other people's pets (which by keeping him on leash is doing) - but if they run into him it's their lookout.
Diana

Cindy the weimaraner's web site:
http://cindy-incidentally.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk
Your dog was provoked by an aggressive animal which was illegally allowed to run around off it's leash, which as far as I know is not sufficient legal cause for any city to order your dog put down.

The term "provocation" does not seem to be well-defined in animal law but from most of the references I've been able to find it appears that the attacking dog must be suffering pain in order for him/her to be found to have been "provoked". See references below.

JFWIW,
Dianne
"Provocation: the myth
In dog bite cases, provocation is a defense, but the defense is almost always unavailable. One of the reasons why it is over-relied upon is that the word 'provocation' means one thing to the law but another to animal behaviorists. In the law, 'provocation' is limited to acts such as hitting a dog. For example:
* Walking toward a dog did not constitute provocation. Chandler v. Vaccaro (1959) 167 Cal.App.2d 786.
* Holding packages, walking toward a dog and its owner, and addressing the owner did not constitute contributory negligence. Eigner v. Race (1942) 43 Cal.App.2d 506.
...
* In Burden v. Globerson (1967) 252 Cal.App.2d 468 the court ruled that regardless of the dog's breed, one does not assume the risk of being bitten simply by choosing to initiate interaction with a dog.

In 19 out of 20 cases, the defense is unavailable, having resulted from guessing and speculation."
http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/whybite.html
"A person who provokes a dog generally cannot receive compensation. The definition of "provocation" is tricky usually, it means that someone more than 5 years old physically injured the dog." http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/interviewing.htm

"'Without provocation' means that a dog was not teased, tormented, or abused by a person, or that the dog was not coming to the aid or the defense of a person who was not engaged in illegal or criminal activity and who was not using the dog as a means of carrying out such activity." Ohio Title 9, 955.11(5)
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusohst955.htm

"Many of the people who are bitten or attacked by dogs are not trespassers, and they are not creating a disturbance. Hence, the dog's owner will examine the victim's actions to see if provocation can be proved. In Smith v. Pitchford, the court determined there was no provocation when the plaintiff entered a friend's property, stood still while the dog known to him approached, spoke to the dog calling it by name, and was bitten. The court said that mere presence on the property is not provocation." ...
"Survey of Illinois Law: Liability for Animal-Inflicted Injury" http://www.animallaw.info/articles/arus24silulj693.htm

"'Potentially dangerous dog' means any dog that when unprovoked: (a) Inflicts bites on a human or a domestic animal either on public or private property, or (b) chases or approaches a person upon the streets, sidewalks, or any public grounds in a menacing fashion or apparent attitude of attack, or any dog with a known propensity, tendency, or disposition to attack unprovoked, to cause injury, or to cause injury or otherwise to threaten the safety of humans or domestic animals.
...
Dogs shall not be declared dangerous if the threat, injury, or damage was sustained by a person who, at the time, was committing a wilful trespass or other tort upon the premises occupied by the owner of the dog, or was tormenting, abusing, or assaulting the dog or has, in the past, been observed or reported to have tormented, abused, or assaulted the dog or was committing or attempting to commit a crime."
Washington Statute 16.08.070, "Dangerous dogs and related definitions" http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stuswast16 08 040.htm
"Provocation: the myth ... * In Burden v. Globerson (1967) 252 Cal.App.2d 468 the court ruled that regardless of the dog's breed, one does not assume the risk of being bitten simply by choosing to initiate interaction with a dog.

Hmmm. I understand and agree with the other points, but this one's just goofy. The dog's being held to a higher standard of behavior than the human. IMO, without legal expertise but the common sense of someone who's frequently around dogs, there is always a risk of being bitten and therefore choosing to initiate interaction with a dog should assume that risk.
Hi Kelly,
I'll be late for obedience class if I take the time to c/c/p, so here's my thoughts.
I wouldn't consider muzzling him, for two reasons. One, bad PR. Two, every pit bull that I personally know that was muzzled during walks or other situations escalated in aggression towards other animals whether muzzled or not. Remove their defense, and they tend to become more defensive.
I'd have the dog walker exercise the dogs on your own property. It's safest for you, and your dogs.
Debbie
Your dog was provoked by an aggressive animal which was illegally allowed to run around off it's leash, which as ... out in public one is bound to run into stupid people who don't know anything about how to treat dogs.

Manu would be ecstatic if a kid ran up and tried to pet him. he'd be wriggling all over, tail all a-wag, and the worst thing he'd do was lick the kid to death.
we purposely practice with him, patting him on the head and nose, pulling his ears and tail, he doesn't care. he just licks us. people he loves. little animals, different story. and dogs, he needs to show who is boss.

-kelly
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