Don't let the topic fool you, I would never even think of actually doing this but I was wondering if anyone has dealt with dogs trained in this fashion. What I mean is complete negative reinforcement training, for instance whenever a dog does something unwanted you yell at it or swat it so it associates the misdeed with verbal or physical pain. Instead of dishing out treats or toys you condition the dog to fear the alpha's words or actions. This "punishment" would obviously be used in a controlled fashion and not haphazardly as abuse.
The reason i'm asking this is because human beings are often trained through negative reinforcement and society claims it works on people. If you enlist in a military bootcamp you get yelled at and "punished" for infractions to make you a disciplined killer. When you commit a criminal act in society you are sent to jail for "punishment" and expected not to do it again once you get out. The fear of the punishment in both cases are supposed to instill discipline and self control.
Now the question is..if society says this is supposed to work for humans why are so many people reluctant to use it on animals as a standard to test this theory? Is it hypocrisy?
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The reason i'm asking this is because human beings are often trained through negative reinforcement and society claims it works ... are so many people reluctant to use it on animals as a standard to test this theory? Is it hypocrisy?

Jailing people for crimes against society doesn't work, crim's reoffend after been jailed, it doesn't teach them to be good citizens.

Negative reinforcement (punishment) is widely used to "train" dogs, but rather than motivating them it teaches avoidance and mistrust, it appears to work as it produces "results" (choke collars, prong collars, shock collars and "NO" "BAD DOG" are all examples ), but it can also cause other unwanted behaviours and anxiety related problems to occur. Maybe that's why so many dog have unwanted behaviours and anxiety issues.
Paul
What you are describing is actually positive punishment and not negative reinforcement. NR is when the dog is subjected to something negative (a steady shock for example) until it performs the desired behavior. The dog learns to perform an act quickly to turn off the stimulus. Positive Punishment is when one does something to the dog (for example, corrects) in reaction to an undesired behavior.
I've seen a couple house dogs "trained" (not obedience but house manners like staying off the couch) strictly by positive punishment and punished in the true sense of the work slap, etc. And the few I've know were very hand shy (as one would expect) and seemed leery of every move their owners made.

Kristen &
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http://www.kristenandkali.com
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, it was written:
Negative reinforcement (punishment) is widely used to "train" dogs,

reinforcement and punishment are two entirely different things.
reinforcement is anything that reinforces the continuation of a behavior. punishment is anything that stops a behavior. positive is the addition of something. negative is the subtraction of something. so, that gives us four options:

R+ = positive reinforcement
R- = negative reinforcement
P+ = positive punishment
P- = negative punishment
perhaps if you took a little time to familiarize yourself with what those terms you're tossing around actually mean, you wouldn't come off sounding like some sort of stale fruitcake?
rather than motivating them it teaches avoidance and mistrust,

could you please give an example of how negative reinforcement teaches a dog avoidance and mistrust? TIA!
it appears to work as it produces "results" (choke collars, prong collars, shock collars and "NO" "BAD DOG" are all examples ),

could you please explain how choke collars can be used to provide negative reinforcement? TIA! (i can see how prong and e-collars can be used in such a way, though my conclusions about the dog's response differ greatly from yours.)
but it can also cause other unwanted behaviours and anxiety related problems to occur. Maybe that's why so many dog have unwanted behaviours and anxiety issues.

or, maybe dogs who have unwanted behaviors and anxiety issues were either poorly bred, poorly socialized, or poorly trained/untrained?

shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
What I mean is complete negative reinforcement training, for instance whenever a dog does something unwanted you yell at it or swat it so it associates the misdeed with verbal or physical pain.

Sorry, but what you are describing is NOT "negative reinforcement". You actually mean "complete positive punishment".
"Negative reinforcement" refers to REMOVING an unpleasant or aversive stimulus, to reward the dog (or whatever species you're training) for doing what you want. For example, if I were training a recall with a shock collar, I would do so by teaching the dog to turn OFF the collar by turning towards me.
A non-physical example could be an unpleasant sound which stops when the subject complies.

Sarah
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The reason i'm asking this is because human beings are often trained through negative reinforcement and society claims it works on people. If you enlist in a military bootcamp you get yelled at and "punished" for infractions to make you a disciplined killer.

Having spent 6 years in the reserves, and also growing up in the military, I feel the need to comment on this.The way that the military trains is done that way for a reason. When in a dangerous situation, you must be able to react without thinking, knowing what the guy to your left and the guy to your right are doing. There are lives at stake, both yours and the other guys. Plus, the "punishment" (mostly just yelling and pushups) also has another design in mind. It is to mold the group into one unit. If they all go through the same experiences, the same ups and downs together, the react by forming a common bond, and get much closer together.

Another caveat is that this type of training is only done on the very basic courses, to instill the above-mentioned ideas, as well as a sense of discipline. For more advanced courses, there is very little need for this. Add that to the fact that, as a soldier, you are expected to be able to handle various rifles, pistols, guns as well as explosives, and rockets, you have to ensure that the person using the weapon is absolutely certain that they know how to use it under the most extreme of circumstances.

There is a saying, the more blood lost in training, the less blood lost in war.

Comparing the training of soldiers to that of dogs, is like comparing apples and oranges. The great majority of dog training is not designed to ensure that a dog will be able to react appropriately in a life or death situation. It can be used for that, but it is not designed for that. Soldier training is.

**
Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli
**
'If we weren't all a little crazy,
we'd go nuts.'
**
.> If you enlist in a military bootcamp you get yelled at and "punished"
for infractions to make you a disciplined killer.

Not exactly. First, anyone in boot camp is going to get yelled at no matter what, at least at the beginning; it's not a matter of being "punished for infractions".
According to what I've read and heard, the point of boot camp is to create a group identity, to teach the subjects to think and react properly under extreme circumstances, to physically condition, and to weed out those who don't have what it takes to react properly under combat conditions. See Marcel's excellent post for a more complete explanation. BTW, you don't "enlist in a military bootcamp"; you either enlist or are drafted into the military. You may or may not be sent through boot camp, depending on how and when you enlist.
What I mean is complete negative reinforcement training, for instance whenever a dog does something unwanted you yell at it or swat it so it associates the misdeed with verbal or physical pain.

That is actually positive punishment. You are adding something (a correction) in order to decrease a behavior (punishment).
Negative reinforcement would be taking something away in order to increase a behavior.
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