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Sometimes, 'training' needs a little elaboration

Absent any additional input from Lynda, here's some "elaboration" for you:
Per Lynda, "He also plays up more on the lead - he tries to chase cars and if someone comes up near him rears up at them (or tries to) or worse still lies down and stares at them and won't budge."

I would suggest some OBEDIENCE TRAINING that would correct his tendency to "play up on lead," "chase cars," "rear up" on people, not "budge," just for starters.
If Lynda's unable to correct these "problems" in just a few days (with whatever method she's currently using), she probably needs the help of a professional trainer.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
The Frivolity of Evil:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14 4 oh to be.html
I have been following this thread and now I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong with my sheltie. She is ... can run amazingly fast. Now I read about joint problems. Should I be concerned about that with my sheltie? Lori

If she is running on her own, it should be fine. I think the concern is doing "roadwork" or running a dog on concrete, especially long distances, where the dog is basically not in control of its exercise but running a distance controlled by the owner.
Having had 7 month old shelties myself, I know they have lots of energy and will run on their own if given the chance (heck, my 6 year old still runs laps around the yard, its exhausting to watch as its almost an acre.)

Christy
Yes, I'm happy to speak up, but I am in the UK and think most of you are probably in the USA so there's a bit of a time difference.

It would seem Handsome Jack has got my post totally wrong. I have not hinted anywhere that Jake playing up on occasion on the lead is hindering me giving him exercise. He has had fantastic exercise up until recently, we've had months of great walks up in the woods during the day and daylight.The problem is I have had to go back to work and I live in a residential area. I can only walk him in the very early morning (5.45) and evening (5.30) - and at both times, in the current British winter, it is very dark. So, I am loath (even though I have been doing it for Jake's sake, so he gets to go off his lead and let off steam) to take him down the disused railway track I mentioned and onto the park. A girl was attacked in a nearby park in daylight recently - I don't feel that safe.

So I have to resort to lead walking until the spring and lighter days. Thats why I said I don't like doing it - I feel sorry for him not having anywhere to go off lead Monday - Friday and that's why I wondered if I could run with him yet, to give him a bit more chance to let off steam. (I've done about half a mile with him a few times and he doesn't make any effort to car chase, bother other people etc - bizarre but happily true).
I know his behavour on the lead is not acceptable. Some of it I put down to his not being used to lead walking, on very busy streets, with car headlights, people walking to bus stops etc. Of course there is an element of him being a bit stroppy there too but - I AM taking him to obedience. I did that, AND saw a professional dog behaviourist after receiving advice from others on this group, when he was nipping me. (Out of interest, it was confirmed he is bossy but absolutley not agressive and has been doing very well at the obedience class but I know I have a long way to go with him - but I'll keep trying and I will get there.)
Diana says - "Sometimes, 'training' needs a little elaboration and training an adolescent, >>'hyper' kinda dog is a damn sight easier said than done." - I agree and I really would like some of the people who slate people like me to have a go at training Jake - I've had dogs for 20 years, I'm not a novice, but I have got my first dominant dog and so now it's a learning curve for me.
I omitted to mention the car chasing tends to be when a white diesel van drives by, which is what my husband drives. The rearing up at people is totally unacceptable and I am not letting him get away with it but like anything it takes time.
Anyway, my original question was can I run with him. Not for ANY other reason than I want him to have good exercise (and thanks Leah, I have his toys named and we have great fun with that type of stimulation, in fact, I even have a frisbee with which we have great fun playing retrieving games - IN THE DAYLIGHT!!).
I am pleased to say the vet answered my question about running today (Not until at least 1 year old) and sorry that HJackM was so quick to misinterperate me when I only asked an innocent question.

And in reply to some of the other points in this post see below:
OBEDIENCE TRAINING per se is pretty self-explanatory, IMO, and is pretty much like saying that someone needs a high school or college education.

I agree but I bet if you spoke to a few teachers they would say some pupils are a damn sight harder to get through to than others.
Lynda's dog sounds like it's a pretty normal 10 month old BC that's not getting any (or poor) OBEDIENCE TRAINING, and it appears to be hindering Lynda's ability to even take her dog outdoors for exercise, etc.

See above - I would NEVER not exercise my dog properly.
And no, I don't think this dog is "hyper." I just think it's been poorly trained, and now may not even get some much-needed exercise because of it.

He is not hyper. (Did I ever say he was?) He gets a bit excited - I put this down to being 10 month old! When I leave him and go to work he does not chew, does not bark (Neighbours have confirmed this) - he lays in his open crate (he has full access to hall and kitchen) or by the front door and waits for me to get home. When I get home, he doesn't go "hyper" he rolls on his back to have his tummy scratched.
I didn't, and don't, think it's necessary to "elaborate" further at this point on the specific kinds of obedience training, absent additional information from Lynda. Perhaps she'll speak up soon?

Yep, I just did. Sorry it's been a long post but in the end I felt I had to defend myself which I didn't originally expect.

Lynda
I wouldn't run with him at this age it can cause joint problems and I'd already be careful with Jake since he is quite large. I'd also be concerned about keeping him fit and thin.

Thank you Melanie. I won't be running with him for a while yet after seeking the vets advice today. He also confirmed his weight is OK as he is such a huge bear type of a Border Collie, but that I should stop giving him meat with his complete meal dry food - so that should make a bit of a difference to keeping him lean too.
Lynda
Hi Lynda,
Ignore Jack. He's in a lot of peoples killfiles including mine. Have you thought about having an experienced dog walker take Jake out at lunch time?
The cost varies depending on where you live but it would be worth it. Also, there are moderated forums run by trainers where you can for advice, I can email you the web addresses if you like. Alison
It would seem Handsome Jack has got my post totally wrong. I have not hinted anywhere that Jake playing up ... fantastic exercise up until recently, we've had months of great walks up in the woods during the day and daylight.


Lynda, I think it was pretty obvious from your original post that your dog had been getting some exercise until just recently, when you mentioned having problems with him on lead, etc.
I know his behavour on the lead is not acceptable.

No, it certainly doesn't sound acceptable.
Some of it I put down to his not being used to lead walking, on very busy streets, with car headlights, people walking to bus stops etc.

Then that is exactly what you need to be focusing on. It's even more important, IMO, than getting him more exercise, etc.
Of course there is an element of him being a bit stroppy there too but - I AM taking him to obedience. I did that, AND saw a professional dog behaviourist after receiving advice from others on this group, when he was nipping me.

Are you happy with his current behavior, Lynda?
"He also plays up more on the lead - he tries to chase cars and if someone comes up near him rears up at them (or tries to) or worse still lies down and stares at them and won't budge."

Are you happy with the above?
If you're not, then that* is what you need to be *focusing on.

Yes, even in lieu of "playing fetch," "naming his toys," etc.

Do not pass Go, do not collect $200, until you deal with those problems.
(Out of interest, it was confirmed he is bossy

That's what good OBEDIENCE TRAINING can deal with quite effectively, Lynda.
As the old saying goes, it's either LEAD, FOLLOW, or GET THE HECK OUT OF THE WAY.
Pick one.
Diana says - "Sometimes, 'training' needs a little elaboration and training an adolescent, >>'hyper' kinda dog is a damn sight ... not a novice, but I have got my first dominant dog and so now it's a learning curve for me.

If you train a dominant dog the same way that you train a soft dog, you'll likely end up with a REALLY dominant dog.
But your dog doesn't sound so much dominant as willful, which is what good OBEDIENCE TRAINING can deal with quite effectively.

Yes, I can be repetitive at times. I am, after all, a dog TRAINER.
I omitted to mention the car chasing tends to be when a white diesel van drives by, which is what ... people is totally unacceptable and I am not letting him get away with it but like anything it takes time.

That kind of behavior shouldn't take longer than a few days to deal with. If it's taking longer than that, you're doing something wrong, and you probably need more help than you're currently getting.
Anyway, my original question was can I run with him.

And I answered it and said no, that you shouldn't.

Don't I get credit for anything?
Not for ANY other reason than I want him to have good exercise (and thanks Leah, I have his toys ... I am pleased to say the vet answered my question about running today (Not until at least 1 year old)

*I* would wait even longer than that.
and sorry that HJackM was so quick to misinterperate me when I only asked an innocent question.

Regarding running with your dog, how exactly did I "misinterperate" your question?
I'm willing to learn something new, too, Lynda.
And in reply to some of the other points in this post see below:

OBEDIENCE TRAINING per se is pretty self-explanatory, IMO, and is pretty much like saying that someone needs a high school or college education.

I agree but I bet if you spoke to a few teachers they would say some pupils are a damn sight harder to get through to than others.

Absolutely! And some pupils, if not disciplined effectively, will even try to take over the class, etc.
And that's exactly what *I* think is going on with your dog.
Lynda's dog sounds like it's a pretty normal 10 month ... ability to even take her dog outdoors for exercise, etc.

See above - I would NEVER not exercise my dog properly.

If you're doing as much retrieving as you claimed above, Jake's probably getting enough exercise.
Retrieving is a wonderful* exercise, and BCs take to it like, well, like retrievers do. And if you have a friend stand away at a distance, with perhaps a dozen training dummies, and then tosses them a few feet for your dog to fetch, one at a time, you can easily exercise the heck out of your dog without *you having to do much of anything but take the dummy out of his mouth on the return trip, etc.

Not that you'd want to, but you can even get your dog's tongue to stick out far enough to actually touch his toes...while never having to take a step yourself (which is nice, if you happen to have, say, bad knees yourself).
And no, I don't think this dog is "hyper." I ... may not even get some much-needed exercise because of it

He is not hyper. (Did I ever say he was?)


Did *I* ever say he was?
Sheesh.
That's what Diana said. I was DISAGREEING with Diana. Could you please keep your attributes straight?
He gets a bit excited - I put this down to being 10 month old!

That's where we differ.
I put it down to less-than-effective training.
It shouldn't take 10 months to deal with a dog "playing up on lead," "chasing cars," "rearing up at people," and "refusing to budge."

With ANY dog.
*I* think you could use some help from a professional trainer.
When I leave him and go to work he does not chew, does not bark (Neighbours have confirmed this) - ... get home. When I get home, he doesn't go "hyper" he rolls on his back to have his tummy scratched.

Then please tell Diana that, not me.
I didn't, and don't, think it's necessary to "elaborate" further ... absent additional information from Lynda. Perhaps she'll speak up soon?

Yep, I just did. Sorry it's been a long post but in the end I felt I had to defend myself which I didn't originally expect.

There was nothing really to "defend" yourself from, Lynda, except perhaps to supply some additional information to your readers that would help them understand what you were actually doing regarding your dog's OBEDIENCE TRAINING.
When you didn't mention that, but saw fit to mention certain problems that you were having, I thought it was timely (because I'm a dog TRAINER) to mention the fact that some good OBEDIENCE TRAINING might come in handy right about now.
And I still think so.
Good luck with your dog anyway, Lynda!
He sounds like a great little dog.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
The Frivolity of Evil:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14 4 oh to be.html
Hi Lynda, Ignore Jack. He's in a lot of peoples killfiles including mine.

That's because you're IDIOTS, Alison Number Two.
Have you thought about having an experienced dog walker take Jake out at lunch time?

How precious. In lieu of actually TRAINING her dog effectively, just have some stranger come over to her house and take Jake for a walk.

Yeah, that'll do it.
Riight.
Brits.
You're getting to be more like the French every day.

France.

The cost varies depending on where you live but it would be worth it.

Well, it'll surely help to put the dog walker through college.
Also, there are moderated forums run by trainers where you can for advice, I can email you the web addresses if you like.

I see. Now you appear to actually AGREE with me, i.e., that this dog probably just needs some good OBEDIENCE TRAINING?
Sheesh.
(snip of mucho superfluous text because Alison Number Two hasn't figured out how to do that yet)

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to reply via e-mail
The Frivolity of Evil:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14 4 oh to be.html
>Sorry it's been a long post but in the endI felt I had to defend myself which I didn't originally expect.

Comes with the territory. :}
Having recently gone through a border collie's adolescent period, I know that dealing with that kind of energy, sensitivity, reactivity and intensity can be very difficult. Two of Maddie's littermates ended up in rescue after they hit
6 months old.

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That's a shame. I knew a wilful pup would not be easy (and I knew Jake was wilful within a week) but we are together for the duration!! I could not contemplate giving him up - but - I can understand how it could happen, it is a very difficult thing to deal with.

In actual fact my obedience trainer has just called me to say that he thinks Jake could move up to his Advanced Class - I am so pleased.

I am delighted with him 95% of the time. The other 5% - well I write up here for advice! Yours is always appreciated - thanks.

Lynda
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