When shelly reproached me that certain people in this group were offended by my posts, I told her that I had no respect for people who were offended by the truth. That all that those offended people had been doing was to scream that Jerry lied, without actually bringing any proof that what he said about them were lies. In all the instances that I had checked, the quotes were all from actual posts, archived by Google.
shelly replied that I should have been >

I certainly don't want to inadvertently offend anyone, and the thought that I might have wronged an innocent and well-meaning dog lover with my words started to torture me. To the extent that I felt that finding out the truth and offering apologies (if warranted) was worth wasting a few hours on Google. Of course, I could have taken the easy way out, as suggested by shelly herself, and ask her and the others if Jerry's "lies had any basis in reality". That would have been nice - and easy, too.
Unfortunately, blind faith is not my cup of tea, so I had no choice but to go back to Google and search some more.
In fact, I remembered, I had asked both shelly and Tara how they were punishing their dogs, in a less traumatic way than praising them for bad behavior. Tara flatly refused to talk about the subject, blaming my ignorance and lack of manners. shelly was more accommodating, though my insistence on details managed to make her lose her temper, too - like this:
Me:
OK, what is it that you do say or do, ... act? And what happens if you see it post factum?

shelly:
"no" or "uh-uh." honestly, are you paying any attention to what i write?

(This is what shelly had previously written:

Lucy:
What is "bupkis"?

shelly:
bupkis =3D nothing.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/09064025ec4c = 36ee?hl=3Den
Still puzzled, but reluctant to pursue the topic (perhaps it was just I who was having stubborn dogs who were unimpressed with me doing "nothing" and were just happy to carry on whatever they were doing, or maybe shelly's "bupkis" method was so efficient with her dogs, indeed?), I tried my luck with a Google search on our "shelly" and the inexistent "prong collar", and - surprise, surprise! - here was shelly herself, talking about her training method:
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/cc55033185dc = 77d1?hl=3Den
Of course, shelly doesn't SHOUT at her dogs - she just uses a "deeper, louder voice". And sometimes bupkis: "a prong collar with him".

Does she, "sometimes"? Strange, in her posts to me, she never mentioned the prong collar - it must have slipped her mind. But here shelly is even more explicit:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/c646a6baeee3 = e368?hl=3Den
>
So "uh-uh" and "no" and "bupkis" don't really work, unless there's a prong collar somewhere, too. Sometimes. That is, when training the dog.
The prong collar is a bit harsh; I saw it used on a psychotic 7-month old German shepherd during obedience ... it did work for that dog who was already so aggressive and large that his owners were terrified of him.

shelly reassuringly replied:
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/b09437eb7709 = 7193?hl=3Den
Gentler than praise for bad behavior, shelly? And doesn't it scare the dog, shelly? Isn't there at least the possibility that the dog might panick, when suddenly feeling the pinch on his neck?
Spike is just trying to hunt inappropriate objects; I think I can at least get him to cool it if food is his reward.

shelly continued:
. i'm attached to a leash and there's someone at the other end of it.">>
Well, the prong collar must be one of those VGTs (Very Good Things) that make shelly's dogs come straight to her, forgetting anything else that might have stirred their interest.
And here's some more about those VGTs:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/9f40d6c50a37 = a05a?hl=3Den
When another na=EFve poster is trying to suggest that
The lead is just something to hold on to,

here goes shelly:
>
(=2E..)
The other person:
But then you are inflicting your will on him rather than him making the decision that he wants to come to you.

shelly:
>
(=2E..)
But no matter what, but jerking him on the lead, you have hurt him ~ maybe not a lot but a bit ~ that inflicting your will and power on him and that breaks trust.

>
If you were to go up to your best friend and not say anything but grab their shirt collar and start dragging them to you with an angry face ~ what reaction would you expect?

>
Yeah, that's really good to know.
Well, who was it that was telling lies around here?

So much about those Very Good Things that shelly's dogs know they can count on shelly to give them, if they forget about chasing the bunny and run straight to her, instead. shelly's dogs must be thrilled - not a chance that they'd prefer Jerry's sound distraction and praise to the gentle, considerate method their owner uses with them. Or, in shelly's own words: no. Uh-uh. Bupkis.
Lucy
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When shelly reproached me that certain people

(Is that even grammatical?)
MORE INTEREST! LESS BORING, PLEASE!!
Many thanks.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
Still puzzled, but reluctant to pursue the topic (perhaps it was just I who was having stubborn dogs who were unimpressed with me doing "nothing" and were just happy to carry on whatever they were doing,

context is everything. dogs who are barking in your face generally are trying to get your attention. remove that attention (IOW give them bupkis by removing the thing they are seeking) and you remove the incentive to engage in that particular bad behavior.
or maybe shelly's "bupkis" method was so efficient with her dogs, indeed?), I tried my luck with a Google search on our "shelly" and the inexistent "prong collar", and - surprise, surprise! - here was shelly herself, talking about her training method:

what "inexistent" prong collar? i don't believe we've ever discussed prong collars. if you'd just asked me about them, i would've told you that i've used them. i've made no s33kr1t of which training tools i've used and how i've used them.
>

oh noes!1!! i've been found out! if you'll note, elliott is
11 years old. i do not work with him in the same way now as idid when he was a wee pup. i've changed, he's changed, and we've both learned to understand each other better. believe it or not, that's a good thing.
yes, i can* talk to elliott in a loud/exaggerated/strong tone of voice. i could even yell at him, if i wished. he couldn't care less. as far as he's concerned, it's *all great good fun. however, since the arrival of harriet, we've both learned to communicate with more restraint as well as to rely more on non-verbal cues. *** happens and, as intelligent beings, we make adjustments.
Of course, shelly doesn't SHOUT at her dogs - she just uses a "deeper, louder voice". And sometimes bupkis: "a prong collar with him".

i don't shout at my dogs while training them and bupkis does not equal a prong collar.
Does she, "sometimes"? Strange, in her posts to me, she never mentioned the prong collar - it must have slipped her mind. But here shelly is even more explicit:

i had no reason to mention a prong collar to you as you never asked me about them.

i'd like to see you teach leash manners to a dog like elliott using "good dog!" haw!11!!
>

all true.
Gentler than praise for bad behavior, shelly?

how, exactly, do you plan to teach leash manners to a dedicated puller who doesn't even know you exist, using "praise"? be as specific as possible, please, because i'm planning on getting a Siberian Husky in the not too distant future and they are notorious pullers. i'd hate to think i was abusing a dog when i could be using your obviously superior methods. TIA.
And doesn't it scare the dog, shelly?

what doesn't? prong collars? of course not. i wouldn't have used one if it did.
Isn't there at least the possibility that the dog might panick, when suddenly feeling the pinch on his neck?

yes, and the dog could be abducted by aliens and used for experimentation. there are certain risks associated with getting out of bed in the morning.
Well, the prong collar must be one of those VGTs (Very Good Things) that make shelly's dogs come straight to her, forgetting anything else that might have stirred their interest.

for the record, i have never used a prong collar in teaching a recall.
Well, who was it that was telling lies around here?

certainly not me.

shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 4/3/05)
When shelly reproached me that certain people

(Is that even grammatical?)

You're right, it does sound kinda awkward. :-)
MORE INTEREST! LESS BORING, PLEASE!![/nq]I walk my two dogs on a flexi with a splitter. Always. Never had any problems with them (knock the wood). They always go to other dogs to play with them, especially Clyde. I do ask the permission of the other owner, if s/he objects I tell my dogs the other doggy doesn't want to play, let's go, good dogs, and they come. A few days ago, Clyde almost got me into trouble, though. He wanted to run after a kitten (his low prey drive, you know!) and I told him "It's a good kitty, good boy!" and you know what my good boy did? Went to the kitten and started to lick him.

I said, "Oh God, not again! Let's go, good boy, before it's too late". It's how we got the first (and, hopefully, the last) two cats we have now: Clyde started to lick them, and they followed him everywhere. To this day.
Many thanks.

And many thanks to you, Melinda, for reading my boring stuff the minute it is posted. :-)
Lucy
I walk my two dogs on a flexi with a splitter.

MORE SMART! LESS IDIOTIC, PLEASE!!
Many thanks.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
MORE SMART! LESS IDIOTIC, PLEASE!!

the thought of someone who is ignorant or uncaring enough to yoke two dogs to the same Flexi, lecturing others about their tool usage, is, um, well, i can't quite find the word for it, but i assure you that it is, indeed, something. quite.
Many thanks.

don't hold your breath.

shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 4/3/05)
don't hold your breath.

Recently, on something I remember being embarrassed to watch so it was either a reality show (yay, Uchenna and Joyce!) or C-SPAN (yay, um, um, um, oh forget it), someone told a story about a guy falling off the Empire State Building and as he passed the 28th floor someone called out the window "How's it going?" to which the guy responded "Just fine, so far".
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
so it was either a reality show (yay, Uchenna and Joyce!)

wasn't that a relief? i was sick at the thought that they might not win.
"How's it going?" to which the guy responded "Just fine, so far".

ha!

shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 4/3/05)
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
I do ask the permission of the other owner, if s/he objects I tell my dogs the other doggy doesn't want to play, let's go, good dogs, and they come.

Assuming that you actually wrote what happens above, you are giving proof that praising unacceptable behaviour doesn't work. (Or at least it doesn't when you apply it)
If it worked, your post would have looked like this:

Modified quote:
I do ask the permission of the other owner, if s/he objects I tell my dogs the other doggy doesn't want to play, let's go, and they come.

Marcel and Moogli
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com /
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