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Please don't get me wrong, I really like pits and have yet to meet one that wasn't great w/people. One of my favorite obedience students at the shelter were I volunteered was a gorgeous, strong, well-muscled, little male.

However, it's my direct experience that the ones my dog has socialized with are not good with other dogs (to be fair to the breed, I don't think that I've met a knowledgeable pit person other than those on these groups) and so now I protect my Kali girl from future attacks by keeping her from socializing with them. It's awful, but I couldn't forgive myself by allowing her to get bitten a third time.

Kristen and
Kali CD, CGC, TDIA, TT
www.kristenandkali.com
It is funny, but at the same time if I wanted a pouting kid, I would have had a baby.
Toklat is even simpler than Orson - he doesn't appear ... And even if scared, then happy is two seconds off.

I love dogs with uncomplicated emotional lives.

Yes,thats exactly why I have dogs. Simplicity.

BethF, Anchorage, AK
It's YOUR God.
They are YOUR rules.
YOU burn in hell.
Granted, miniature schnauzers aren't toy breeds but the same stereotype is applied to terriers. And for the purpose of discussion, miniature schnauzers are considered terriers in the US.

It was a schauzer that started changing my opinion of small yappy dogs. My first business partner had a schnauzer that I saw every day because we were cooking out of his kitchen (before getting the commercial kitchen for catering). He and Kasha had been to obedience school to learn the basics. Sure Kasha had a high voice, but you only had to say QUIET to her once, and she'd stop.
Lia
It was a schauzer that started changing my opinion of small yappy dogs. My first business partner had a schnauzer ... basics. Sure Kasha had a high voice, but you only had to say QUIET to her once, and she'd stop.

HA!! I KNEW IT!!! I've seen schnauzers win over many a person who thought they didn't like them because they were yappy little dogs.

I have known so many schnauzers who have a quiet dignity about them - especially as they get older. I know they're small dogs but I don't think of them that way. (And, of course, neither do they.)

And as I've said, I really can't argue with the thought they aren't so much terriers anyway.
I admit, Sassy has a high voice. Shrill, actually. Totally recognizable in a whole group of schnauzers barking. It can set your (and my) teeth on edge. We are seriously working on it. And she is doing MUCH better. Spenser's bark (and that of Hector before him) is much deeper. But they both understand "Enough".
~~Judy
HA!! I KNEW IT!!! I've seen schnauzers win over many a person who thought they didn't like them because they were yappy little dogs.

My experience has been the reverse. I met a giant Schnauzer before I met the smaller versions, and really liked the dog. Then I met the little terrors - yappy, ill mannered, bossy little things, thanks in large part to completely clueless owners. I can't even tell you how many growling matches they've started where they've been completely obnoxious, in the other dog's face, nipping at it, etc. and when the other dog is finally sick of it and tells the "little darlings" off, the owners get all pissy about it. Then there is one particularly obnoxious little hellion who insists on peeing on all the other dogs and humans he comes across - let's just say that his tactic did not go over well with either the 4 legged or the 2 legged.
I realize that I am probably running across some really non-breed savvy owners, but just like with JRTs (who also seem to have their own share of the clueless owner contingent attached to them), you can't pay me enough money to take one on.
Suja
HA!! I KNEW IT!!! I've seen schnauzers win over many a person who thought they didn't like them because they were yappy little dogs.

Furthering my earlier argument about schnauzers can be obnoxious little yappers, there's one in my neighborhood. I like the owner enough to take walks with her and enjoy chatting with her immensely, but I don't care for her dog. He yaps every time Cubbe and I walk by their house, and his looks and shape don't appeal. It really is all in the training and the individual dog.
Lia
He yaps every time Cubbe and I walk by their house,
and his looks and shape don't appeal. It really is all in the training and the individual dog.

I think we can probably include schnauzers in that same category as GSDs where we all say "a well-bred.." and also include the disclaimer for training.
So many breeds that have suffered from popularity have the same sort of problem of less than ideal temperament breeding. And smaller dogs have the doubled problem of clueless owners who think everyone else will ignore their dog's bad manners because they are so "cute".
OTOH, maybe the way to solve the popularity problem is to encourage their reputations as nasty, yappy little dogs. ;-)
As far as looks and shape appeal, I can understand that's just personal preference. As I said, I find that I like dogs with beards. I have no explanation for this affinity but it is clearly there.

~~Judy
I met a giant Schnauzer before I met the smaller versions, and really liked the dog.

I admit I never felt "the tug" for a Giant until just recently. They just didn't do it for me. Then I met one that I absolutely would have brought home in a heartbeat. Now I'm starting to think..

Have you ever met a Standard? They're very much like the Giant - and are almost as difficult to get so their owners are more likely to be screened by a breeder who knows the breed and the type of owner they need. Both are dogs that need a firm hand and an experienced owner. And a bad-mannered Standard is not a pleasant dog to be around.
Then I met the little terrors - yappy, ill mannered, bossy little things, thanks in large part to completely clueless owners.

Geez, now *I* don't even like them.. ;-)
I realize that I am probably running across some really non-breed savvy owners, but just like with JRTs (who also seem to have their own share of the clueless owner contingent attached to them), you can't pay me enough money to take one on.

I have to agree with you about the clueless owners. There's something about "cute little dogs" that makes everyone* think they can handle a dog just fine. And these are both breeds that are very aware of whether or not *you are in charge because if you aren't, then they will be.

I think people are more likely to take classes with larger dogs than with smaller ones. Just the ability to walk them on a leash gets a lot of people into classes. A ten pound dog tugging at the end of the leash just isn't as much of a problem.
So much of it is the owner. And the breeding. But mostly the owner.

~~Judy
smaller dogs have the doubled problem of clueless owners ..Watchit, Judy!

Actually, you're right most of the time.
Which leads to a big philosphical and political question. Are small dog owner clueless because they can get away with it? Are owners of a big, challenging breed likely to be more savvy because they have to be? What are the social implications of this?
Oh, to hell with it. Gonna go play with my dogs.
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