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Its small in terms of public recognition. Almost everyone knows there is an AKC. Most of those people knows there is a CKC (whether they know there are two of them is another matter). Most of those know there is a UKC. Of the three, and querying Americans, AKC will be returned everytime that someone even knows there is a dog association out there. Rarely do people know about the APDT unless they have Pit Bulls, know people who have Pit Bulls or are dog people in general. That, at least, is my experience.

Tara
From what I have gathered Can. Rally-O is the same, or very similar to,the AKC version.

Bit of a nit-pick, but the APDT/Bud Kramer versions are what's referred to as "Rally-O"; the AKC is just calling it "Rally"... and as Robin said, the AKC version is based on the other programs.
Canadian Rally-O is also open to all breeds including mixes so I'm not sure why you think Marie's dog wouldn't be I didn't say she wouldn't be eligible to compete in Canadian Rally-O; I said she wouldn't be eligible to compete in AKC Rally, although I should have specified that it applies to Rally as a titling event. My point is, and was, that Dianne's reply about "what AKC intends Rally to be" seems to me to be A. inaccurate in that the AKC did not invent Rally and B. irrelevant as regards Macula, since she's not purebred and not in the States.
According to what I've read/heard, the creators and orginal sanctioners of Rally-O didn't intend it as "a transition between the CGC and Obedience & Agility", but as a stand-alone sport which was less rigid, more enjoyable, and more applicable to real-life situations than the formal structure of competitive obedience - and which was open to all dogs.

And as Robin said, I suspect the AKC version is going to become very much a stand-alone sport, and be more popular than Obedience, not be seen as a "transitional" activity.
I didn't see it specifically stated on the AKC site that only purebreds could competein Rally

The relevant part of the Rally rules, AFAICT, is:
"The Obedience Regulations and Rules Applying to Dog Shows, where applicable, shall govern the conduct of rally trials and shall apply to all persons and dogs participating in them, except as these Rally Regulations may otherwise provide."
And I believe the relevant part of the Obedience rules is:

"Section 3. Entries. To be acceptable, an entry must:

Include one of the following:
AKC registration number
AKC litter number
ILP number
Foreign registration number and country of registration for an unregistered imported dog"
The AKC site should specify this in bold lettering because it didn't jump outat me.

It wouldn't "jump out at you" if you looked at rules for AKC Obedience or Agility, either, but it's in there.
The ONLY AKC program I'm aware of that's open to non-AKC dogs is the CGC test, and that only if it's not given in conjunction with another AKC event. Non-AKC dogs can participate in practice "matches" and other non-titling events, but by AKC rules are not even permitted on the grounds of a titling event.
Its small in terms of public recognition. Almost everyone knows there isan AKC. Most of those people knows there is a CKC (whether they know thereare two of them is another matter).

And those same people have also never heard of NADAC or USDAA; it doesn't negate the fact that both are thriving agility programs which existed long before the AKC decided to have an agility program, and which continue to thrive and grow.
Nope. The only other organization which officially has Rally is APDT,

And according to everything I've heard/read that program existed before the AKC program; IIRC, I was hearing about Rally-O for several years before it was mentioned in connection with the AKC.

Sionnach, I've been on the Rally list for years. Yes, Rally has been discussed as a sport for probably the past 4 years or so. But AKC is the first major sanctioning body in the U.S. to have it as a sport. Bud Kramer wrote his book several years ago, and that's what was discussed. But no sanctioning body other than the APDT has offered titling classes in Rally prior to this January 1. The AKC first started promoting Rally shortly after Bud's book was published. It's been an official non-regular class for at least a couple of years.
which really isn't much of a licensing organization for instance I ... have no clue how to get to an APDT show.

Erm... the information is really easy to find by going to the APDT site; perhaps you didn't know about it simply because your focus is almost entirely on AKC events?

Or perhaps you're refusing to believe that AKC isn't hijacking it because you hate AKC so much? By the way, my local club does UKC almost exclusively, so I'm not sure why you say my focus is almost entirely on AKC events. I personally do AKC agility exclusively at the moment because I dropped NADAC, there's one total USDAA event in my area and no CPE. But that doesn't mean I always only do AKC everything.
AKC is the first large organization to officially sanction it. ... has backed out for a quoted "indefinite" >period of time.

I'd heard that; there's little or no UKC in my area, and I'm not particularly interested in Rally, so I haven't really paid much attention to the discussions about it.

So you don't know much of anything about it but you're quite willing to leap to the conclusion that the only way AKC could possibly do Rally is by hijacking it from other organizations? On the contrary, The AKC consulted directly with Bud from the beginning on this, which information is available in the archives of the rally-o group on yahoo.
When I say "large organization," I mean large organization that sanctions titling events. APDT is primarily an association of dog trainers and frankly you can become a member of APDT simply by paying a fee, there's no real qualifications to join. The primary purpose of APDT seems to be to hold training conferences. Rally-O is the only competition they offer, and if you look at the site there are a big, whopping 15 trials offered this year, with 3 pending.

NADAC and USDAA are massive compared to that. Further, the APDT rules for Rally are much farther from Bud Kramer's vision than the AKC rules. And the AKC was already working on provisional status for Rally, including having a description and Rally signs on their website, well before APDT came on the scene and decided to make it a titling event. If anything, I'd say the APDT tried to steal it from the AKC, not vice-versa. Originally the UKC was going to have it out prior to the AKC, and I have no idea what happened with that.

The UKC seems to be having some real infrastructure problems at the moment, which is reflected in things like this and in their now-going-on-four-year promise to have new agility rules out "in two months."
Bit of a nit-pick, but the APDT/Bud Kramer versions are what's referred to as "Rally-O"; the AKC is just calling it "Rally"... and as Robin said, the AKC version is based on the other programs.

What? Where did I say "the AKC version was based on the other programs?" What other programs? And honestly, the APDT version is not as close to Bud's original idea as the AKC, with much tighter guidelines, less ability to talk to the dog, more exact positioning, etc.
My point is, and was, that Dianne's reply about "what AKC intends Rally to be" seems to me to be A. inaccurate in that the AKC did not invent Rally and B. irrelevant as regards Macula, since she's not purebred and not in the States.

No one said that AKC invented Rally. Bud Kramer did. But AKC worked with Bud, including using his guidebook, to develop it.
And as Robin said, I suspect the AKC version is going to become very much a stand-alone sport, and be more popular than Obedience, not be seen as a "transitional" activity.

Yep. The true hard-core comp obedience people sneer at it. But then they sneer at anyone who doesn't aspire to a 200 at any cost, so how surprising is that? And how surprising is it that a lot of other people are very dissatisfied with the way comp obedience has changed and want something that will honor their efforts in a way that doesn't require the extreme accuracy of a 200 score?
Or perhaps you're refusing to believe that AKC isn't hijacking it because you hate AKC so much?

"Hating" the AKC -which I don't - has got nothing to with it.

I simply have a bit of difficulty with someone answering a question about Rally-O (which I've been aware of as a non-AKC titling event for some time) with information about AKC Rally in terms which imply that it's exclusively an AKC event.
And my difficulty mostly arises from A. the fact that the person being given the information isn't in the U.S. AND doesn't have an AKC-eligible dog B. that the definition/description given is different from what I understand Rally-O to be - again, I'm aware of it as a sport which stands on its own merits, not as a training ground from which one must transition to formal obedience competition.
If the question had been "What's Rally?", and been from a US resident with an AKC-eligible dog, the response wouldn't particularly have bothered me.
I'm not sure why you say my focus is almost entirely on AKC events.

Erm... I should think that was obvious, actually - pure and simple, because I've never heard you mention participating in anything but AKC and NADAC events... and everybody who reads the .RPD groups, subcribes to the NADAC list, and/or subscribes to AgileDogs knows you quit doing NADAC last year.
I personally do AKC agility exclusively at the moment

Um... so then why does it seem to surprise/offend you that my perception is that you're AKC oriented???

I've been aware of APDT-sanctioned Rally-O trials for a number of years, from discussions on this group, discussions on a Yahoo group for those who compete in various sports with non-AKC dogs, and from personally knowing people who compete in APDT.
When you say you'd never heard of then, the natural conclusion is that it's because your primary focus is AKC events, and therefore you haven't been exposed to the information.
Same reason, in reverse, that I was unaware that there was any AKC affilition/interest in Rally until fairly recently - I think it was first mentioned on here about 18 months ago.
Simply a matter of what one's exposed to.
So you don't know much of anything about it

I neither said nor implied that. I said that I'm not particularly interested in participating in it, and that there isn't much UKC in my area; therefore, I haven't paid much attention to online discussions as to why the UKC has backed off on sanctioning it.
I actually know a fair amount about Rally-O, even though it doesn't interest me as a sport for myself and my dogs; there are groups who offer trials in my area, and I personally know several people who participate in it, so I have a decent general understanding of what the sport consists of.

Which, btw, I don't think anybody has yet bothered to describe to Marie.. that it consists of doing obdience exercises on a course, moving from station to station, and that it's less formalized and rigid than kennel-club obedience, with more interaction between dog and handler permitted; in terms of other sports, sort of freestyle as opposed to compulsory exercises. (Although "freestyle", in terms of dog sports, refers to "dancing" to music with the dog, not to Rally.)
but you're quite willing to leap to the conclusion that the only way AKC could possibly do Rally is by hijacking it from other organizations?

I said nothing of the sort - I merely pointed out that the AKC didn't invent it, and that there is already a sanctioning organization in the U.S. There is apparently also already a sanctioning organization in Canada.
you can become a member of APDT simply by paying a fee, there's no real qualifications to join.

Which is basically irrelevant to the subject of participation in APDT-sanctioned Rally-O trials. I don't think you have to be an APDT member to compete in their trials, any more than you have join anything to participate in any sort of agility (well, unless you count the JRTCA ).

It also doesn't mean that the APDT titling program, or the Canadian one which apparently exists, is inferior to the AKC one, or vice versa.
The UKC seems to be having some real infrastructure problems at the moment

I had gathered that much from what I've been hearing on the other lists; just haven't paid much attention to the details since, as I said, I'm not particularly interested in UKC events at the moment.
What? Where did I say "the AKC version was based on the other programs?"

I was referring to "I would say it's about 95% Bud Kramer and 5% AKC changes.", although my phrasing is a bit unclear.
No one said that AKC invented Rally.

Not in so many words, no - but it was directly implied when the question "What's Rally-O" was answered with "The AKC intends...", with no mention of the fact that it was created by Kramer, and that there are other sanctioning organizations out there.
Yep. The true hard-core comp obedience people sneer at it.

Heh, well, my experience is that they tend to sneer at quite a few things.. which is typical of the hard-core types in any sport.
how surprising is it that a lot of other people are very dissatisfied with the way comp obedience has changed and want something that will honor their efforts in a way that doesn't require the extreme accuracy of a 200 score?

Not in the slightest... and not to mention that IMO/IME, a lot of people want something that's more closely related to what they do in real life with their dogs.
I didn't see it specifically stated on the AKC site that only >purebreds could competein Rally

Forgot to say - You probably already know this, but the AKC's rules aren't as loose as "only purebreds".
AKC titling events are limited to those breeds which the AKC "recognizes", and further limited (as shown in the section of the rulebook I posted) to members of those breeds who are AKC-registered, AKC-pedigreed, have an AKC ILP number, or are pedigreed and registered with one of the foreign registries the AKC accepts.
And the latter, IIRC, can only use the foreign reg. number for 30 days; after that, they have to obtain full AKC registration. Also, some FSS dogs are eligible to participate in AKC Obedience, Tracking, and agility, but must meet the following criteria: "a minimum of
150 dogs with three generation pedigrees recorded in the FSSĀ®, a nationalbreed club with members in at least 20 states, and an AKC approved breed standard."
As an interesting side note, the two Jack Russells depicted in the agility action clips here:
http://www.akc.org/breeds/parson russell terrier/video.cfm

are both older ILP'd dogs (both, IIRC, JRTCA-pedigreed) who don't meet the standard for the "Parson Russell" - and would be denied ILPs if they were to apply today.
Which, btw, I don't think anybody has yet bothered to describe to Marie.. that it consists of doing obdience exercises ... to station, and that it's less formalized and rigid than kennel-club obedience, with more interaction between dog and handler permitted;

Actually, while some people were bickering, others were explaining and Marie was told about this. I don't know anything about the relative merits of this argument, but as one who doesn't know rally or rally-o but was interested in learning more about it, this whole discussion makes it less clear, less interesting and less likely that I will look into it. Has anyone noticed that Marie isn't even participating?

Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
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