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And after thinking about it, I notice that you seldom ... might want to get into the details a little more.

LOL! You just slammed LynK for daring to ask why we didn't post a training plan, and now you are saying I should?

Detailing an entire training plan for someone (especially for who wouldn't know what to do with one) is a little different than, say, telling someone how to get their dog to sit, don't you think?

You ought to try it some time, instead of playing your usual recording of:
"Find a PR based trainer."
Sorry, but I recommend classes for people.

There's nothing wrong with doing that, but from time to time, you might actually want to explain to at least some folks here how to go about using that vaunted "PR based" method of yours to help solve some of these folks individual problems.
Just for the fun of it.
See if you can do it without saying "Find a PR based trainer."

I don't think you can do it.
Look, you feel most comfortable amongst clicker trainers, because they always pat you on the back and reinforce your theories.

No, because I agree with their theories. Why would I hang out with a training group who's theories I don't know or agree with?

Which part(s) of operant conditioning and classical conditioning do you disagree with?
You're becoming (or have become) a one-trick pony.

I don't think so. There are so many more options training like I do than I ever had with Koehler, PR based training isn't one trick.

I have no idea what kind of specific training you use because you really never divulge any details.
And like I said before, all dog training is "PR based."
There's no sin in being a one-trick pony, but some tricks don't work well on some dogs, or for some behaviors.

See above.

Yes, see above.
No, I think anyone who basically ignores 3 out of the 4 operant conditioning quadrants knows very little about dog training.

Who does that?

Are you really this dense?
If you say that you use only or mostly R+, you're basically ignoring the other 3 quadrants, and that's pretty stupid, IMO.
And if you now want to start claiming that you ... until now, about not using corrections, using only R+, etc.

Oh BS. I've stated many times PR based trainers DO use corrections, they just aren't physical ones.

I could say, that as an e-collar trainer I don't use physical corrections, couldn't I? I could even say that as a traditional trainer, I don't use physical corrections, just collar pops, which are basically sound distractions.
With the vast majority of dogs, and for the vast majority of training, physical corrections aren't needed.
Again, you're a hard duck to pin down.

Quack.

Yeah, that's you. A quack.
There must be a reason that you keep returning to a newsgroup that you find so useless and/or abhorrent.

For kicks? I like to see who is still around, who's still feuding with who, etc. And sometimes I find a genuine post, like the OP's, that I answer.

You mean one where you play your usual recording of "Find a PR based trainer"?
But what have you taught them to do? Anything more than the basics?

Novice A, for the show ring, but yeah, I teach basic pet classes. I've never claimed otherwise. And like I said, I don't go around giving advice to schutzhund people, hunting people, or even agility people, those are not my expertise.

For someone who admits to having limited expertise, you sure do argue a lot. One would think that someone with such admitted limited expertise might prefer to listen rather than to talk.
Well, good for you then! But think how many more ... if you would simply use a training collar and leash?

I used to use a training collar and leash. I got 15 dogs adopted out in three months who had ... adopted out using no training collar or leash. It works as well, and I find it works better for me.

If you think that the vast majority of dogs that one finds at shelters are going to improve fast enough through clicker training alone to get them bailed out within the time-frame they're usually allotted, you must be smoking some of that whacky tobacky.
Then why are you always complaining about the people who choose to use "corrections," for crissakes?

PHYSICAL PHYSICAL PHYSICAL corrections.

What's physical about an e-collar correction??? Or a traditional collar pop???
Are you afraid to even touch your dogs???
Is it that you think that you're the only freakin' person in the world who knows when and when not to use them?

I don't use physical corrections, so I don't know how to answer this.

Then why criticize those who do??
If you don't use them, and don't know how or when to use them, why not just stop criticizing those of us who do?
You're a real piece of work, Ronna.

Thank you Emotion: smile

That's not something that *I* would be proud of.
PRO training vs PR training vs traditional training vs food training vs clicker training vs e-collar training, etc.

I train the way I like to train.

Have you ever seen me, or seen Tracy, or any other traditional trainers, for that matter, criticize anyone for using clicker training?
Then why is it always the clickeroos who are doing all the carping, haranguing, etc? You folks are like some kind of weird cult. You've probably had your brains removed as some kind of initiation ritual.

I'm *** tired of it.
You're worse that Peta pukes and Scientologists.
Well, if you were concerned with getting the best results possible, you wouldn't limit yourself to R+ when teaching the recall.

Why? R+ hasn't failed me yet Emotion: smile

That's such a lame reply. You admit that you only do the basics, yet you're proud of the fact that R+ hasn't failed you yet.

That day is going to come, darling, and I'm going to feel sorry for your dogs when it finally arrives.

I could go on and on with you, but you ... people to ever know exactly what you mean about anything.

Well, I'm sorry about that.

No, you're not.
How so? What, you think I take my dog out into traffic and practice recalls or something?

Because you only use R+ to proof recalls(that is, if you even bother to proof them), there's going to come a distraction one day where your dog is going to give you the Flying Fickle Finger of Fate, and then you're going to find out the hard way how R+ has its limits.

It's virtually an axiom: Stupid people must always find out things the hard way.
No. The objective is to not put your dogs' lives ... to use more than just R+ when teaching/proofing the recall.

Like I said, my method hasn't failed me yet. Just got back from dirtbike riding this morning and took Ajax, ... by risking my dogs life, is it because I don't punish him if he doesn't come when I call him?

The fact that you're admitting that there are times when he doesn't come when called tells me all that I need to know about your kind of "PR based" training.
I repeat: One day your dog isn't going to survive one of your "PR based" attempts to recall him. I hope and pray that I'm wrong.
In person. With yourdogs. Using certain distractions. At certain distances. Etc. Then we'll both see just how reliable your dog's recall is. Emotion: smile

Well, I highly doubt that will ever happen, but I am completely satisified with my dogs recall.

Okey dokey.
Ronna, just about everything you say here confuses me...

Sorry, I'm trying to type as clearly as I can.

It's not the typing that is unclear. It's your thinking.
Now look. There's no reason to keep our little tit ... the mix, lets make this the end of it, okay?

Okay Emotion: smile

It's over for me, kiddo.
There will be no more replies from me to you in this thread.

I've finally accepted the fact that, with you, too, there is no there there.
Bub bye.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
Want to learn something about "moderate" Islam? Visit these websites often:

http://jihadwatch.org /
http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch /
http://www.martinkramer.org
http://memri.org/index.html
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It has worked for what I do. I'm sorry you hate that idea.
dirtbike riding this morning and took Ajax, my GSD with ... punish him if he doesn't come when I call him?

The fact that you're admitting that there are times when he doesn't come when called tells me all that I need to know about your kind of "PR based" training.

Where did I admit that my dog doesn't come when I call him? Don't believe I said that. It's just you, seeing things that aren't there again.
As for the rest of your dribble, it's all the same as it always is. Nothing new or enlightning. And thats too bad.
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The fact that you're admitting that there are times when ... need to know about your kind of "PR based" training.

Where did I admit that my dog doesn't come when I call him? Don't believe I said that. It's just you, seeing things that aren't there again.

What part of:
Don't know what you mean by risking my dogs life, is it because I don't punish him if he doesn't come when I call him?

...did you fail to understand?
Nothing new or enlightning. And thats too bad.

That's why it's time for us to put this all to bed.

Handsome Jack Morrison
*gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
Want to learn something about "moderate" Islam? Visit these websites often: http://jihadwatch.org /
http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch /
http://www.martinkramer.org
http://memri.org/index.html
It looks like Australia and Handsome Jack are on the same page when it comes to Muslims: http://www.californiaconservative.org/?p=740
I'm not exactly sure what "clear off" means, but I think I like it.