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, and I've never used an electric collar.
There will come those times in most dogs' lives when they will be presented with very strong temptations, e.g., to ... friendly), etc., and one that might just result in the dog being injured, lost, or even killed if succumbed to.(snippage)

Applause! Great post, Jack. I agree entirely.
Bravo!
Tracy
"
/nq]
You can also find a good PR based trainer, my dogs recalls are incredible, and I've never used an electric collar.

"
However, I believe that there is a definite place for a well-timed correction.
Hi Tracy Emotion: smile
One of the myths about PR based training is that we don't use correction, or say the word "no". For some reason, people (like Jack) cannot keep that fact in their head, and thus accuse PR based trainers of never correcting the dog.
There ARE corrections used in clicker and PR based training, they just aren't PHYSICAL ones. There are also people like me, who WILL recommend a prong collar to a student if everything else has failed, I have no problem with prongs, I prefer them greatly over head halters, although I will use those as well, especially on dog aggressive dogs during training.
I know ecollars work, never said they don't. I would use one too, if my dog was doing something dangerous and ALL ELSE had failed. So far, I haven't had that happen with any of my dogs, or my students dogs. Granted, I teach basic classes and sometimes Novice A classes for obedience, but IME I haven't needed or wanted to use an ecollar.

All I did was offer an alternative to the ecollar, didn't mean to insult you or anything. Jack, OTOH, is very set in his old ways and loves to accuse me of follwing some "shining path" Emotion: smile
So.. I'd rather base my training on anticipation of reward, ... my dogs are far from locked in the basement Emotion: smile

Out of curiosity. What kind of dogs do you have? What would you do with a dog that finds an ... about electric collars, but if your dog is associating the e- with the collar, you're not doing something right. Suja

I have a Great Dane, a GSD, and a Poodle. The GSD and Poodle have been trained exclusively using PR based methods. The Dane is 12, and I trained him using Koehler. I've only been using PR based training for about 5 years now, Koeler much longer than that.
IF my dog chose a dangerous activity, and I could not fix it using PR based training, I might use an ecollar. So far, I've never used one, nor have I needed to.
A person I know through these newsgroups and a board uses an ecollar with her dog. IMO, she is one of the few people I've talked to who actually admit how the collar works, and why. The rest of the folks I have talked to never give a clear answer to any questions, and one even denies that ecollar uses electricty. I respect the lady I know because she knows what she is doing and doesn't sugar coat it. I absolutely hate it when people deny how a method works.
All I did was offer an alternative to the ecollar, didn't mean to insult you or anything. Jack, OTOH, is very set in his old ways and loves to accuse me of follwing some "shining path" Emotion: smile

Killfile the altekokker. If he did accuse you of being a member of Senderia Luminosa because of your training choices he's not capable of carrying on an honest discussion (which you probably could have guessed, anyway). SL was a Maoist Peruvian terrorist group that murdered 10s of thousands of people.

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Republicans told me that government spending would explode if I voted for Al Gore, and they were right.
One of the myths about PR based training is that we don't use correction, or say the word "no".

There are PP trainers out there. Pure Positive. No corrections, including the word no. I happen to know one. He claims that ignoring bad behaviors and rewarding good ones is the only way to go. I happen to think that he is full of it.
All I did was offer an alternative to the ecollar, didn't mean to insult you or anything.

The way you phrased it, it seemed like you were discounting the utility of e-collars. While it may not be necessary for the OP to put a flawless recall on her dog, it may be the only tool that could get some other dogs to that point.
I am convinced that Pan was born with the perfect recall. Khan OTOH..

Suja
One of the myths about PR based training is that we don't use correction, or say the word "no".

There are PP trainers out there. Pure Positive. No corrections, including the word no. I happen to know one. He claims that ignoring bad behaviors and rewarding good ones is the only way to go. I happen to think that he is full of it.

I actually think there is no such thing as PP. That choosing to ignore a behavior is, in itself, a correction. Anything which gives the dog feedback that says "this is not what I want" is a correction, it's the "cold" side of the hot-cold game.
I actually almost never use the word no because it's too global. It might tell the dog he's done wrong, but not what he has done wrong and doesn't give any information about how to fix it. The conditioned response becomes No = Bad, but the dog doesn't understand why it's bad or how to fix it.
The way you phrased it, it seemed like you were discounting the utility of e-collars. While it may not be ... flawless recall on her dog, it may be the only tool that could get some other dogs to that point.

Exactly. I now mostly use R+ and P- in my training. I use clickers and toys and drive and I engage the dog in the learning process through operant techniques. But I will also use a correction, and what I use depends on the dog and the situation. Anything that's life or death calls for the use of whatever tool works for that dog, which may indeed include an e collar. Now I've never used one on one of my own dogs but that doesn't mean I don't think it's a valid and valuable tool.
I actually think there is no such thing as PP. That choosing to ignore a behavior is, in itself, a ... feedback that says "this is not what I want" is a correction, it's the "cold" side of the hot-cold game.

Yup, and for a "sensitive" dog, silence can be devastating.
I actually almost never use the word no because it's too global. It might tell the dog he's done wrong, but not what he has done wrong and doesn't give any information about how to fix it.

Again, silence or non-reward can be just as uniformative to a dog, which is why I use corrections that don't just say "wrong" but "like this".
I actually almost never use the word no because it's too global. It might tell the dog he's done wrong, ... The conditioned response becomes No = Bad, but the dog doesn't understand why it's bad or how to fix it.

Like pretty much everything else, it depends how you use it. My dogs understand "NO!" to mean "stop it right now," for whatever value of "it" is operative at that moment. Because communication involves how you say things as well as what you say, I haven't found that my dogs are confused by things like "Do you no the way to San Jose?" or even by a conversational "no."

Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - (Email Removed)

Republicans told me that government spending would explode if I voted for Al Gore, and they were right.
A person I know through these newsgroups and a board uses an ecollar with her dog. IMO, she is one ... what she is doing and doesn't sugar coat it. I absolutely hate it when people deny how a method works.

She does. Jack describes things pretty well, too.

Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
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