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Actually, I skip those parts of the posts, but you, ... funny? I read what pertains to training, not name calling.

so the training part amuses you? i'm sorry, but i don't believe you.

I really don't care what you believe.
Now chill out again, which does not mean "shutup" by the way. hth Emotion: smile

i did not say "chill out" meant "shut up." i said that they are both, along with Jack's newest insult ... chill out, and i certainly don't think it's an appropriate way to talk to another adult. mileage varies, i guess.

LOL! Chill out means, relax. If you find it dehumanizing for someone to tell you to chill out, well, I surely didn't mean to offend your dainty frail ego...
That wasn't posted to you, it was posted to the OP.

Tracy said find a good ecollar trainer, in response to the OP. I said you can also find a good PR based trainer.
I wasn't talking to Tracy. I was talking to the OP. Tracy wasn't asking for a trainer, as she pointed out. I'm sorry if you can't figure out who is talking to who by the contents of their posts.
LOL! Chill out means, relax. If you find it dehumanizing for someone to tell you to chill out, well, I surely didn't mean to offend your dainty frail ego...

how could it not* be dehumanizing? in telling someone to chill out, you are denying them a response. you're telling them that they don't get to have a say in how they feel, nor are they allowed to tell you that they even *have feelings. that's pretty *** up.

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 7/10/05)
LOL! Chill out means, relax. If you find it dehumanizing ... I surely didn't mean to offend your dainty frail ego...

how could it not* be dehumanizing? in telling someone to chill out, you are denying them a response. you're telling ... in how they feel, nor are they allowed to tell you that they even *have feelings. that's pretty *** up.

Wow, I had no idea you were so "sensitive".
Telling someone to chill out does not mean they can't talk about their feelings, how you get that out of chill out is pretty far fetched. Chill out (relax) in this case meant to let go of your anger towards my posts, thats it.
That wasn't posted to you, I posted that for the OP. I think you missed the post where I explained that I didn't mean to offend you, and that I do like prongs if needed.

No offense taken! But I did think it was posted to me because it was written in direct reply to one of my posts. Sorry - my bad.
That's what I mean by "proofing."

Well, can't say that I have, but the dogs I train and my students dogs don't need to be proofed during a Civil War reinactment.

Well, I gotta say that the distractions ARE pretty extreme! But then, there are dogs that will freak out and take off on the 4th of July, or anytime there is a loud noise like a car backfiring.
Well, good for you. I really think I should repost what I actually said to you, since you are responding ... Emotion: smile One of the myths about PR based training is that we don't use correction, or say the word "no".

There are many, many PRO trainers who do not use correction at all, not even the word "no." And I truly believe that "PR based" is different from PRO. As I've said before, all good and effective training is positive reinforcement based. The issue is whether or not to include physical correction as a part of a training regime.
For some reason, people (like Jack) cannot keep that fact in their head, and thus accuse PR based trainers of never correcting the dog.

I'm going to refrain from getting in the middle of whatever personality differences you and Jack may have. I can understand Jack's frustration, though. His training methods don't seem out of line to me and he has a good deal of knowledge and experience with dogs and he does what he knows works. And there are folks on this list and elsewhere (I'm not saying you!) that will bash traditional trainers like him and like me.
There ARE corrections used in clicker and PR based training, they just aren't PHYSICAL ones. There are also people like ... prefer them greatly over head halters, although I will use those as well, especially on dog aggressive dogs during training.

I don't use head halters at all. I've tried them on an "expert's" recommendation, but I don't like them. I have many reasons for this, but the bottom line is I don't consider them safe and many dogs just won't tolerate them. And they're not a training tool - they're a management tool. So, I don't wait until "all else fails" to use a prong collar - I use it first to get the best results. I don't care for choke collars, either, because most folks aren't skilled enough to use them properly. I do use them with softer dogs, but I've got the skill to not throttle the dog.
I know ecollars work, never said they don't. I would use one too, if my dog was doing something dangerous ... basic classes and sometimes Novice A classes for obedience, but IME I haven't needed or wanted to use an ecollar.[/nq]For what you're training, you probably don't need the e-collar. I didn't need it either, until the situation arose when I had to make sure that my dog would stay within a certain perimeter of me and never, never break that line to chase after a flock of birds or a running deer or to escape something that frightened her. That's why I brought out the heavy artillery. But after seeing the results, again in lightning fast time, I wouldn't hesitate to use it as PART of developing an amazing recall outside of the show ring.

And, of course, I used the vibration pager a lot initially because my dog doesn't have the benefit of functioning ears. Also, the e-collar has had the added beneficial effect of causing my dog to stick to me like glue when I ask her to. Once you have a tool that gives you so much so fast, I don't see why I would fuss around with other methods that take much, much longer and may not work at all in the end. And I'd hate to find out that a method failed by having my dog run out in front of a truck, as Jack so eloquently described.

;-)
All I did was offer an alternative to the ecollar, didn't mean to insult you or anything.

ABSOLUTELY no offense taken!
Jack, OTOH, is very set in his old ways and loves to accuse me of follwing some "shining path" Emotion: smile

I think we're all kind of set in our ways. But Jack can be rather colorful about it, don't you think?
Keep smiling!
Tracy
Telling someone to chill out does not mean they can't talk about their feelings, how you get that out of chill out is pretty far fetched. Chill out (relax) in this case meant to let go of your anger towards my posts, thats it.

i wasn't feeling any anger toward your posts. but, if i had, you have no business telling me what to do with it. where do you get off telling people how to feel?

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 7/10/05)
I wasn't talking to Tracy. I was talking to the OP. Tracy wasn't asking for a trainer, as she pointed out. I'm sorry if you can't figure out who is talking to who by the contents of their posts.

so i should just pick any post and start talking to random people? cool!

shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com /
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com / (updated 7/10/05)
"
/nq]

I'm sure they are, lol! And I'm sure that if your dog can handle a stay during all that, he can probably handle any distraction Emotion: smile
Well, good for you. I really think I should repost ... that we don't use correction, or say the word "no".

"
There are many, many PRO trainers who do not use correction at all, not even the word "no." And I ... positive reinforcement based. The issue is whether or not to include physical correction as a part of a training regime.
Exactly. I call it PR based because I DO use corrections, I don't believe anything training can be "all positive, thats a crock Emotion: smile
For some reason, people (like Jack) cannot keep that fact in their head, and thus accuse PR based trainers of never correcting the dog.

"
I'm going to refrain from getting in the middle of whatever personality differences you and Jack may have. I can ... folks on this list and elsewhere (I'm not saying you!) that will bash traditional trainers like him and like me.
I'm sure his training methods ARE fine for him. I trained for many years using Koehler, and it worked.
There ARE corrections used in clicker and PR based training, ... those as well, especially on dog aggressive dogs during training.

"
I don't use head halters at all. I've tried them on an "expert's" recommendation, but I don't like them. I ... wait until "all else fails" to use a prong collar - I use it first to get the best results.
My own dogs are trained offlead first (in dog safe areas of course). I don't rely on a collar to manage the dog, and when it's leash time, my dog already knows how to walk next to me so their are no leash issues. That is one of the reasons I like clicker and PR based training, I dont' have to wean off the leash or use a long line.
"
For what you're training, you probably don't need the e-collar. I didn't need it either, until the situation arose when ... frightened her. That's why I brought out the heavy artillery. But after seeing the results, again in lightning fast time,
I understand they work fast, I find that PR based training works faster for me than my old style training.
I wouldn't
"
hesitate to use it as PART of developing an amazing recall outside of the show ring. And, of course, I ... would fuss around with other methods that take much, much longer and may not work at all in the end.
Personally, I'd rather take a slower route because I find it much more rewarding for my dog and myself, actually watching my dog think and offer behaviors is thrilling for me Emotion: smile As for working, PR based training hasn't failed me yet Emotion: smile And really, no training is 100%, not even an ecollar, the best we strive for is 99.9.
"
ABSOLUTELY no offense taken!
I'm glad Emotion: smile
"
I think we're all kind of set in our ways. But Jack can be rather colorful about it, don't you think?
Colorful is a nice way of putting it. I find them tiresome, but fascinating, but thats JMO Emotion: smile
"
Keep smiling! Tracy
Back at you Emotion: smile
Telling someone to chill out does not mean they can't ... let go of your anger towards my posts, thats it.

i wasn't feeling any anger toward your posts. but, if i had, you have no business telling me what to do with it. where do you get off telling people how to feel?

You most definetly were feeling anger, you felt the need to respond to every post I made with snide remarks. Unless you enjoy that type of thing, I'd say you were angry.
Where do I get off telling people how to feel?
Again, if you think I'm telling you how to feel, well, all I can do is LOL.
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